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Old 10-04-2018, 09:50 PM   #1
Discretion
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Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

I'm in BB. OMC limps, Button raises to 12, I look down at KQo. I make the call as does the OMC.

Flop JT3r. Checked to OMC who bets 30. Button calls and I call.

Turn 7o. Checked to OMC who bets 55. Button folds and I call.

River A. Pot is 236. Stacks are 270ish. Do I check or do I bet. And if I bet, what size do I make it?

Title is that because I think I made the worst decision possible in that spot.
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Old 10-04-2018, 09:58 PM   #2
MikeStarr
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

Stacks started at $270ish or they are $270ish at the river?
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:07 PM   #3
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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Stacks started at $270ish or they are $270ish at the river?
270 on the river
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Old 10-04-2018, 10:20 PM   #4
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

OMCs are notorious for checking the river. There's no way I would check this to him expecting a bet. They are also notorious for not betting without a big hand. Id take my chances that he has a set or 2 pair and I would shove into him.


PS...stop calling raise with KQ, especially out of position.
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Old 10-05-2018, 01:33 AM   #5
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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Originally Posted by Discretion View Post
I'm in BB. OMC limps, Button raises to 12, I look down at KQo. I make the call as does the OMC.

Flop JT3r. Checked to OMC who bets 30. Button calls and I call.

Turn 7o. Checked to OMC who bets 55. Button folds and I call.

River A. Pot is 236. Stacks are 270ish. Do I check or do I bet. And if I bet, what size do I make it?

Title is that because I think I made the worst decision possible in that spot.
I think you can get paid here a lot. Sets and 2 pair are likely to pay you off, so jamming here is fine.

The preflop and turn decisions were very questionable. I focus on those streets.
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Old 10-05-2018, 03:07 AM   #6
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

Don't particularly like how you got here, but against an OMC type I'd lead river. OMCs tend to be showdown heavy, but will still call river with hands that they won't bet. It's quite possible that he has a hand that will call a shove, but with this specific river I wouldn't want to fold out the parts of his range that the A is bad for. I'd lead about 1/2 pot.

PF I like a 3! or fold with KQ off from the SB.
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:25 AM   #7
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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Don't particularly like how you got here, but against an OMC type I'd lead river. OMCs tend to be showdown heavy, but will still call river with hands that they won't bet. It's quite possible that he has a hand that will call a shove, but with this specific river I wouldn't want to fold out the parts of his range that the A is bad for. I'd lead about 1/2 pot.

PF I like a 3! or fold with KQ off from the SB.
1/2 pot is great also. Just DONT check.
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:16 AM   #8
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

yes NEVER check lol

I think he may fold any hand worse than top 2 pair if you bet too much. Maybe 1/3 pot?

Against a different opponent, we could go 2/3 or even over bet it, but I think that would push him off his hand here.

Last edited by Chunkamunk; 10-05-2018 at 10:18 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:23 AM   #9
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

Some questionable decisions here on every street.

Fold PF...generally speaking...donít call a raise out of position here with KQo. Prefer raise over calling here (as mentioned by someone else), though prefer fold, unless you have info on button to justify 3!

Flop - meh...$30 to call a ~$90 pot. Would be cautious since OMC took the lead. Open ended with two overs. Not going to like it if one of my overs hit, so basically only playing for the straight. OMC...Iím putting on at least TPTK, probably 2 pair (J10) or set. Button...not as sure (no info). Maybe AK/AQ? There is some implied odds here if we hit...hoping we get a card that helps button too...so I guess Iíd reluctantly call (this why you fold your hand PF...an additional $10 PF has become $40 now)

Turn - so what is your thinking here? $55 to call a ~$175 is 3.2 to 1 odds, but odds of hitting straight is 5.5 to 1? Need at least another ~$130 on river to make it (barely) +EV. Will OMC even call it or more if you hit? OMC is very MUBSY and will see the straight on the board and most likely fold if you shove. He probably going to check the river if you check to him. Easy fold here...not even questionable unless you are 100% certain you can shove and get a call (highly unlikely)

River - So you got lucky and made you straight. DO NOT CHECK HERE. Take the lead, shove your remaining $270 and hope you get called. Donít get cute and hope for a check-raise...OMC generally checks the river unless he has the nuts. I doubt there is little difference if you bet 1/2 pot or shove here with OMC. (Plus if you planned on betting 1/2 pot if you hit the straight, expecting to get called 100% of time, thatís -EV).



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Old 10-05-2018, 11:52 AM   #10
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

Next time mention stacks up front; they're usually one of the most important factors in any decision. Next time mention pot size on each street so we know what odds we're getting.

I fold preflop. Yeah, it's a Button raise, but it is one after an EP limp by an OMC (monsters are possible). And we're going to be OOP.

I would likely donk the flop. If we're calling preflop it's because we think the raiser is wide, in which case he likely doesn't have much and a donk can fold out some better hands (small pairs that hate this flop, non-gutshot A highs). We also get to set our price to chase our OESD if anyone does call (I'd donk 1/2 PSB).

As played, I'm also just calling. I get a little worried when an OMC donks big into the raiser, so I'm happy just getting decent odds here to continue (thinking we might not have much FE against an OMC donk in the first place plus we're dealing with 2 opponents and not just 1).

On the turn we're getting about 2.5:1 to chase our 5:1 OESD (I'm ignoring our overs especially since there is a good chance they have poor RIO). Not the greatest of odds, especially OOP (where getting paid off is much harder), especially since some of our outs might be a scare card). I fold. ETA: Misadded the pot so we do have 3.x:1 odds, but still not great OOP, and I still likely just fold.

As played I go for the gold and just hope OMC has a monster on this board (like a set or big two pair) and shove. Admittedly this is a large bet in terms of $$$ at 1/3 NL but big two pairs+ will have trouble folding; if he only has middle pair, he likely won't pay off much on average anyways, so I'd ignore those hands.

GnotafanofanystreetG
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:16 PM   #11
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

Ok so on the turn, I had played with this player before and he is a very very tight OMC. I expect him to show up with a set or top 2 on the turn every single time. As a result, I somehow thought I was getting ridiculous implied odds on the turn. Also, my image was pretty loose so I thought I could get paid off if I hit.

Unfortunately, I completely underestimated what level of OMC this guy was on. On the river, I thought about my decisions and decided that jamming was the best course of action. Unfortunately, he thought about it for about 6-7 minutes and after getting the clock called on him (by another player not me), folded JJ face up.

Clearly, I ****ed up on the turn now because I thought that if I called, I was getting paid off for the remaining stack on the river. I therefore calculated it as 55 to win around 500, not 200. In retrospect, I know that if I checked, he would have bet and might not have been able to fold to my jam. If I had bet smaller around half pot, he was snap calling. So being results-oriented, I made the worst possible play.

Preflop, I had shown massive aggression at this table bluffing in spots that I knew they would fold. I thought I would attract more nonbelievers when I have TPGK. And for those guys that say that this spot is exactly why I should fold KQo pre, why? If I had KQs it would have been literally the exact same spot. KQo I think I can dominate some good hands that would raise button though perhaps not the best candidate to play OOP. Are you guys calling with KQo on the button vs a MP open?

I'm not sure what types of games you guys are playing in but if I'm folding KQo pre there, then I'm playing maybe 10% of hands preflop. I'm never winning any money if I have a monster then because these guys would never put any money in when I raise (I feel like they actually pay attention). Also, I feel like a hand like KQo plays decently well 3 ways since I could flop TPGK all the time.
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:24 PM   #12
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

3bet pre and this hand plays itself.

AP x/stuff
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:20 PM   #13
MikeStarr
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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Ok so on the turn, I had played with this player before and he is a very very tight OMC. I expect him to show up with a set or top 2 on the turn every single time. As a result, I somehow thought I was getting ridiculous implied odds on the turn. Also, my image was pretty loose so I thought I could get paid off if I hit.

Unfortunately, I completely underestimated what level of OMC this guy was on. On the river, I thought about my decisions and decided that jamming was the best course of action. Unfortunately, he thought about it for about 6-7 minutes and after getting the clock called on him (by another player not me), folded JJ face up.

Clearly, I ****ed up on the turn now because I thought that if I called, I was getting paid off for the remaining stack on the river. I therefore calculated it as 55 to win around 500, not 200. In retrospect, I know that if I checked, he would have bet and might not have been able to fold to my jam. If I had bet smaller around half pot, he was snap calling. So being results-oriented, I made the worst possible play.

Preflop, I had shown massive aggression at this table bluffing in spots that I knew they would fold. I thought I would attract more nonbelievers when I have TPGK. And for those guys that say that this spot is exactly why I should fold KQo pre, why? If I had KQs it would have been literally the exact same spot. KQo I think I can dominate some good hands that would raise button though perhaps not the best candidate to play OOP. Are you guys calling with KQo on the button vs a MP open?

I'm not sure what types of games you guys are playing in but if I'm folding KQo pre there, then I'm playing maybe 10% of hands preflop. I'm never winning any money if I have a monster then because these guys would never put any money in when I raise (I feel like they actually pay attention). Also, I feel like a hand like KQo plays decently well 3 ways since I could flop TPGK all the time.
When you call a raise with KQ and flop TP, and the pot gets big, you are going to lose most of the time.
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:47 AM   #14
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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When you call a raise with KQ and flop TP, and the pot gets big, you are going to lose most of the time.

And when your TPGK is the best hand, it's much harder to get multiple streets of value from OOP unless the PFR is prone to barreling. You're using left either having to donk lead multiple streets (which is very transparent , as it's a hard line to balance or disguise), or going with the more common lines of c/c flop, turn checks through, lead river hoping they have something to call with.

I'm sure some will disagree, but I'm perfectly fine with flatting a hand like KQo OTB or in sports where I have position on the PFR and likely overall position in the hand. I just don't like doing so when we'll be OOP throughout the hand, as we'll be missing the flop too often, and when we do flop best with TPGK we're often only going to be getting one street of value do to flow of the hand because of our position.
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:01 AM   #15
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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I'm not sure what types of games you guys are playing in but if I'm folding KQo pre there, then I'm playing maybe 10% of hands preflop.
I suggest a crash course on the value of position in a hand. There's a world of difference in playing KQo on the button and in the BB. If the villain is raising wide, then you're better off 3betting him to take the hand down by the flop.

Hell is holding TPGK oop on the river.
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:02 PM   #16
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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I suggest a crash course on the value of position in a hand. There's a world of difference in playing KQo on the button and in the BB. If the villain is raising wide, then you're better off 3betting him to take the hand down by the flop.

Hell is holding TPGK oop on the river.
Where do I suggest I learn this stuff? I'm having a lot of trouble in situations just like these and I would love if I could get some good advice on preflop strategy in these live games.
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:22 PM   #17
100thMeridian
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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Ok so on the turn, I had played with this player before and he is a very very tight OMC. I expect him to show up with a set or top 2 on the turn every single time. As a result, I somehow thought I was getting ridiculous implied odds on the turn. Also, my image was pretty loose so I thought I could get paid off if I hit.

Unfortunately, I completely underestimated what level of OMC this guy was on. On the river, I thought about my decisions and decided that jamming was the best course of action. Unfortunately, he thought about it for about 6-7 minutes and after getting the clock called on him (by another player not me), folded JJ face up.

Clearly, I ****ed up on the turn now because I thought that if I called, I was getting paid off for the remaining stack on the river. I therefore calculated it as 55 to win around 500, not 200. In retrospect, I know that if I checked, he would have bet and might not have been able to fold to my jam. If I had bet smaller around half pot, he was snap calling. So being results-oriented, I made the worst possible play.

Preflop, I had shown massive aggression at this table bluffing in spots that I knew they would fold. I thought I would attract more nonbelievers when I have TPGK. And for those guys that say that this spot is exactly why I should fold KQo pre, why? If I had KQs it would have been literally the exact same spot. KQo I think I can dominate some good hands that would raise button though perhaps not the best candidate to play OOP. Are you guys calling with KQo on the button vs a MP open?

I'm not sure what types of games you guys are playing in but if I'm folding KQo pre there, then I'm playing maybe 10% of hands preflop. I'm never winning any money if I have a monster then because these guys would never put any money in when I raise (I feel like they actually pay attention). Also, I feel like a hand like KQo plays decently well 3 ways since I could flop TPGK all the time.


Oy...lots of stuff here

1) you canít assume youíll get stacks in you hit your straight with 100% certainty. Worst possible play would be to check the river, however.

2) no way OMC here calls a check/raise, especially if folded top set to a shove in the river. No guarantees OMC bets the river with an straight on the river. Most OMCís I come across arenít betting without the nuts. Also heads-up, they may check it down on river as sort of a gentlemanly play.

3) not encouraging you to play KQs and not KQo...however playing KQ, regardless suited/unsuited, in the BB here, is not ideal. Position is huge in poker. You gave no info on the Button on this hand, however, what do you think his range is here raising? If Button is a solid player, why get involved in a hand with him oop?

4) You are not going to flop TPGK all the time with KQ...only ~30%...also what happens if you hit your K or Q and an Ace comes out on the flop?

5) Are we really trying to get to showdowns with TPGK? If I was at a table and had an aggressive player and was going to pick a spot to call him out on a hand, Iím raising/jamming streets, not calling. Would you feel comfortable calling a shove on the river with TPGK?


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Old 10-06-2018, 03:42 PM   #18
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Re: Live 1/3 Making Questionable Decisions

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Where do I suggest I learn this stuff? I'm having a lot of trouble in situations just like these and I would love if I could get some good advice on preflop strategy in these live games.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/7...reness-413903/
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