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Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP

09-21-2013 , 12:31 PM
The whole table is very weak, passive. They would limp preflop every time if possible. Most people bought in for $100

V1 is a quiet Asian guy in his 20s. He hasn't said much and is very weak passive. I have not seen him raise preflop much, if at all. He bought in for $200 and has slowly chipped down to $110.

V2 is a weak passive black guy in his 20s. He is dressed kind of down-to-earth hipsterish. He bought in for $100 and slowly lost it. He has rebought again for $100 and is now at $90.

Hero ($450) has been the most aggressive at the table raising preflop 2-3 times an orbit and cbetting frequently. No one is really playing back at me. I bought in for $300 and have chipped up to $450 without many showdowns.

9 handed
V1 MP ($110) limps
CO limps
V2 Button ($90) limps
Hero SB ($450) limps J8
BB checks
I know I should fold this preflop but I decided to play it since they were somewhat connected.

Flop ($10) A9T
I check, BB checks, V1 bets $5, CO folds, V2 calls, I call, BB folds
I'm open ended but I didn't want to bet this against two short stacks OOP. Limping an Ace is definitely in both of their ranges. I opt to call getting 4:1 but begin to think V2 can be on a flush draw when he calls. I doubt V1 is ever betting his flush draw here and he would have bet stronger with Ax+

Turn ($25) 7
I check, V1 bets $15, V2 calls, I call
I decide to check here to see what they will do and pot control this hand. I feel if I lead here I will have to b/f especially if V2 raises me which I don't want to do since I have showdown value now. I decide to call because V2 hasn't made it clear that I am beat yet. I feel this is where I messed up the hand. It probably should have either been a b/c or c/r being that they are both short stacked.

River ($70) Q
I check, V1 bets $30, V2 shoves $68
Hero?

Also, how was my thought process throughout hand?
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Hero ($450) has been the most aggressive at the table raising preflop 2-3 times an orbit and cbetting frequently
Quote:
Hero SB ($450) limps J8
Quote:
Flop ($10) A9T
I check, BB checks, V1 bets $5, CO folds, V2 calls, I call, BB folds
Quote:
Turn ($25) 7
I check, V1 bets $15, V2 calls, I call
Quote:
River ($70) Q
I check, V1 bets $30, V2 shoves $68
Sounds pretty aggro. Fold pre. As played fold river, don't go broke in a limped pot without the nuts. One of them should always have a flush here.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 12:39 PM
I would b/f turn against passive V's.

River is an ldo fold with better straights and flush out, and passive Vs betting and raising.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 12:52 PM
fold pre
Flop and Turn are fine imo
The river is a pretty clear fold to me, one of them will have the flush.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 01:14 PM
Both players are under 55bb and showing little aggression up to the turn, V1 limped and is leading the betting and V2 limped and is calling, and so you've no reason to suspect your hand isn't ahead. If you lead the turn you'll get called by two pair hands, pair and draw hands and most of the time you'll get called by top pair hands and ace high diamond hands and would, most likely, only get raised by flushes. If you check you give them the opportunity to check behind some of those hands and you'll lose value while giving drawing hands a free card which isn't great for your hand on that board. Check-raising the turn is a strong move and so might fold top pair hands but might get you more value for your now nut straight hand against two pair and pair and diamond draw hands and you'll likely only get re-raised by flushes. By calling that turn with absolute position you've underrepresented your hand strength but the river action with that card and a passive player isn't great for your hand which no longer is the nut straight and is dead to the flush. You need to call (70:168) into a suddenly aggressive passive player's shove with another player still to act (but you have him covered and he's short stacked). The only hands you beat that would be helped by that card and potentially inspire that aggression are bluffs-making a squeeze play (unlikely by a passive player), two pair hands and an unlikely a set of queens. A passive player certainly makes that play with the nut straight (Kd) or a flush and in particular a small flush (waited for the river to blank). Considering the way you played the turn calling isn't terrible with a straight but either is folding because you're against a passive player whose gotten aggressive and another passive player in Villain 1 whose led the betting on three streets and is still left to act. If your going to play this hand then by applying aggression on the turn in the form of either trying to seize the initiative by leading with a psb (25) or a pot size (55) check-raise might have prevented this situation on the river.

Last edited by losttrappist; 09-21-2013 at 01:37 PM.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
Sounds pretty aggro. Fold pre. As played fold river, don't go broke in a limped pot without the nuts. One of them should always have a flush here.
I didn't say I was aggressive. I said I was the most aggressive. I took a more passive line on this hand because raising would bloat a pot where I was OOP. I agree that had I folded pre I never would have been in this situation. I have been focusing on opening up my range especially when IP. This hand was a lapse in judgement. As I was completing I was telling myself this should be a fold.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 01:50 PM
losttrappist, you edited thaht post and left it in that wall-of-text format? Paragraphs, dude!
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
I would b/f turn against passive V's.

River is an ldo fold with better straights and flush out, and passive Vs betting and raising.
If I bet $20 on the turn and V1 shoved for $103, I would be risking $83 to win $65 which is a simple fold. Would you still want to b/f if min raises it? He would probably then ship the river anyways and implied odds are still 83:65.

Are we shoving any river other than a diamond if either villain calls on the turn?
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by losttrappist
If you lead the turn you'll get called by two pair hands, pair and draw hands and most of the time you'll get called by top pair hands and ace high diamond hands and would, most likely, only get raised by flushes.
This was my thought as I was typing it into my notes after the hand which is why b/f, like Garick said, would be a good option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by losttrappist
Check-raising the turn is a strong move and so might fold top pair hands but might get you more value for your now nut straight hand against two pair and pair and diamond draw hands and you'll likely only get re-raised by flushes.
I think the problem with c/r this that both Villains are so short that I pot commit myself when they do have the flush and I'm drawing dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by losttrappist
You need to call (70:168) into a suddenly aggressive passive player's shove with another player still to act (but you have him covered and he's short stacked).
I was thinking I was more 88:256 because V1 has pretty much committed himself too by this point so thats 2.56:1 so I need to be correct 28% of the time but that's a lot harder with two villains in the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by losttrappist
If your going to play this hand then by applying aggression on the turn in the form of either trying to seize the initiative by leading with a psb (25) or a pot size (55) check-raise might have prevented this situation on the river.
Other than not folding pre this is where I think I went wrong in the hand. Thanks for your reply.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-21-2013 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Would you still want to b/f if min raises it?
Yes. Passive V's min-raise monsters. I'm more convinced he has the flush if he min-raises than if he shoves, as he clearly wants calls.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-22-2013 , 01:47 AM
I'm glad that everyone agreed this a fold on the river. I folded. V1 called with AdQs and V2 had 79o which is why I was wondering if my fold was too nitty. I knew these guys were bad but didn't think they would play this way on a board so obviously wet.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-22-2013 , 03:03 AM
Just fold the flop man. In addition to being oop, the top end of your draw might not be good and there's a flush draw. This hand can play out a million different ways with you have no idea where you are or what to do.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-22-2013 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
losttrappist, you edited thaht post and left it in that wall-of-text format? Paragraphs, dude!
Sure thing. Thanks.
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote
09-22-2013 , 06:51 PM
Raise pre
Call river
Live 1/2, Turned Straight OOP Quote

      
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