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Old 08-24-2015, 08:31 AM   #1
dickwiggle
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Question Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

Hero ($425) came to casino on a whim after working his finger to the bone making internet cash all week. On list for 2/5 and 5/10 but playing 1/2 at the moment until those games opened. Bought in for $150 to test waters and has ran stack up to current level playing aggressively the past two hours. Only showdown was second nuts (nut full-house) against V.

V (Fluctuating around $1500) live money player who told me he had been at the casino the past 16 hours...everyone knew him but I'm new to the particular room so hadn't seen him. My notes include: Very curious caller but has been catching cards to catch bluffs (river trips/two pair.) Raises 15% of hands pre-flop, positionally aware. Careful in multiway pots with strong but non-nut hands. Large turn/river bets are polarized. Folded my c-bet in 3! pot two orbits before on ace-high rainbow flop.

V - UTG +2 raises to $10 which had been his standard raise when opening.

1 caller

Hero button K10 3! to $37. This was my second 3! against V. Maybe a spew but I like playing 3! pots against people in like V who have been playing a long time and may be loosing focus. If I flop something with this, I don't think he puts me on it in a 3! pot.

V calls, V2 folds.

Flop A Q 4

V Check- Hero bets $25. V Calls

I tank bet small hoping to induce a check-raise from A-Q, J-10 (with one heart), A-A, Q-Q, 4-4, A-K hands. I think I should have bet at least 40 here to set up large bets on the turn and river. Check-raise would have been ideal because I can get stacks in on the flop or jam any turn (probably even turns that pair the board) Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Turn 7 ---Pot $130 minus rake

V Checks, Hero bets 60. V calls.... Thoughts on bet size? I probably needed to go bigger here but I wasn't sure where he was in the hand just calling previous street. I guess in retrospect most hands that are calling $60 are calling $100

River 4 ---Pot $260

V Checks, Hero Bets $110. V tank calls. Hero was partially scared of the paired board and thought he could find a bet fold here. Maybe could have jammed and got called by three pair thinking I missed my flush but I only think I'm getting called by better.

My overarching question is how do I get my whole stack into the pot here? It seems like my fatal mistake was betting small on the flop. I was probably better served to let V bet out big on the turn and maybe min-raise him or something.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:41 AM   #2
TheCake
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

With the pot around 74$ OTF Im deffleading for much more so That I can Get it in on all turns.

Flop I bet 45$

After the call turn =172$ ish

This allows me to stick ~ $145.00 and maybe if you see that twitch in his eye you can make it more. Imo
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:57 AM   #3
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

Preflop is more bluff then anything unless villain's EP range is really wide or he will almost always fold to a 3 bet. Your setting yourself up with a low SPR in a situation where you are likely dominated if you get action. After that you need to bet bigger at some point. You made a risky move, got a monster flop and failed to get your money in.

This is not a good situation for a bet to induce on the flop. That works better when you are OOP and this board is particularly bad because there are so few high hearts for villain to have. The only hands likely to check/raise are sets and those are just too unlikely. Better to bet the flop like you have a good ace but no heart, something like $60.

The turn is a weird situation after your under sized flop bet. Betting big is likely to fold out a lot of hands that called flop but you need to start building the pot. On river, what are you afraid of? Villain has QQ and just check/called flop and turn and then checks to you after hitting his boat? The only reason to bet small at that point is that you don't think villain will call a big bet.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:02 AM   #4
dickwiggle
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
The turn is a weird situation after your under sized flop bet. Betting big is likely to fold out a lot of hands that called flop but you need to start building the pot. On river, what are you afraid of? Villain has QQ and just check/called flop and turn and then checks to you after hitting his boat? The only reason to bet small at that point is that you don't think villain will call a big bet.

Thanks for both of your replies. I think the last paragraph sums up what I thought about the hand replaying it after the session. I am still not sure he would have called a big bet because he didn't show his cards but I shouldn't have been in a situation where bet sizing was even an issue on the river.

Leading out bigger on the flop may have ended the hand but it may have got the stacks in the middle by the river. Definitely fancy play syndrome on my part.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:30 AM   #5
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

Monotone board so obv we worry about another heart killing our action. Players tend to be straightforward on monotone boards so I'm not expecting many c/r so not inducing. This flop hits his preflop continuing range nicely. I'm betting no less than 1/2 pot something like 40/100/shove.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:25 AM   #6
Garick
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

Grunch:

PF is meh, but whatever.

Flop bet is WAYYYY to small. Bet something that looks like it's black AK worried about FDs and/or AQ, but also trying to get value. What would you bet with black AK on this board? At least 3/4 pot, right? Trying to induce a c/r against a V who is positionally aware is bad FPS.

AP to turn, again, bigger. He has something worth calling with but not a CR hand, charge him for it. 3/4 pot+.

AP to river, half pot is prob OK, but I'd try for 2/3.

Your fatal mistake was betting too small OTF, but how can V bet out OTT when you're on the button?

Quote:
how do I get my whole stack into the pot here?
Pot is $74 OTF. You bet $55. Pot is $184 OTT; you bet $135. Pot is $454; OTR and you have a trivial half-pot shove of $227 behind. Easy game.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:43 AM   #7
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

Excellent use of "cheque" in thread title btw.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:08 PM   #8
dickwiggle
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post

Flop bet is WAYYYY to small. Bet something that looks like it's black AK worried about FDs and/or AQ, but also trying to get value. What would you bet with black AK on this board? At least 3/4 pot, right? Trying to induce a c/r against a V who is positionally aware is bad FPS.
Both of you make great points about the monotone flop. Repping black AK is especially believable given the preflop action. Black AK bets pot maybe bigger here and keeps betting giving the runout. Thanks for the feedback. Def need to lead out bigger on the flop, if it folds V that's just life I guess.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:28 PM   #9
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

I haven't decided if I like the 3 bet. You're deep so you're not going to get committed when you don't want to. It's either at the bottom of your calling range or at the top of your folding range which makes a difference. Whichever one it is depends on his tendencies when facing a 3 bet. I guess I need more info.

Flop: I like the idea of inducing a raise just not the timing. You're never getting retaised on this board. Maybe not even from AA. He's going to be afraid of this board no matter what hand he has even bough it's unlikely you have a flush. So, you should be targeting Ax and hope that he has a heart he doesn't want to let go of. Same for turn and river. The discussion here is preflop and why this isn't a good board on which you can induce a raise.
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:11 PM   #10
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

yea due to pot geometry this sizing has cost you at least $100 if not more and giving up 50BB like this is criminal for your win rate. most live players will not c/r this flop without a flush and i don't think your sizing will induce any more flushes to c/r. Just go Pot Pot Pot and get your stack in. Should have no problem in a 3bet pot. River can probably be bigger too regardless of the card. only really worried about AA and QQ and think those play it different somewhere a long the line.
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Old 08-24-2015, 04:18 PM   #11
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

pre is whatever. take it or leave it. if you like to play in 3bet pots in position, i dont really think that anyone can fault that.

flop. this bet is a nightmare. there is ~$80 in the pot and $25 is just not going to do much. Vs at 1/2 arent going to c/r here. especially since the best hand they can have is a Jhigh flush. the turn and river are basically close enough to good sizing (though still on the smaller side), but because you missed the flop sizing you killed your chance to get it all in without a ridiculous river bet

what you did:
flop: pot is 80, you bet 25, ~31% psb
turn: pot is 130, you bet 60, ~46% psb
river: pot is 260, you bet 110, ~42% psb

you got in 37+25+60+110 = 232 of your $425 stack, so just over half

tweeking just the flop bet to 50:
flop: pot is 80, you bet 50, ~63% psb
turn: pot is 180, you bet 90, 50% psb
river: pot is 367, you have 248 remaining, which is ~68% psb

obviously if you tweek the turn bet to like 100-110, the shove is even less of the pot.
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Old 08-24-2015, 07:03 PM   #12
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

Your descripto of villain warrants thoughts of inducing, but it's still 1/2. No reason to get fancy on a flop that smashes the type of hands dude calls a 3-bet with. Anything he might spazz with he's definitely at least calling a bigger flop bet with imo.

All the other stuff about the puny flop bet ruining bet sizing later in hand you already knew. Nice hand, just likely lost a little value.

I like the 3-bet before the flop. Obv you're not going to do it all the time, but you're both deep enough to get a fold on a c-bet when you whiff. Much easier than flatting/giving up or hitting TPGK or something against a dude that could easily have you dominated.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:10 AM   #13
dickwiggle
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

What do people think of an overbet on the flop? As we've discussed, it's tough to put me on a flush here in the 3! Pot. I've been overbetting flopped monsters and for balance with a little bit of less than monsters (never with air) in non-3! Pots to set up getting stacks in on later streets. I think that with stack sizes and pre-flop action it maximizes my value givn V's probable range.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:43 AM   #14
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

flop overbet is probably extremely V dependent. if they'll go for it, it's obviously better to get more money in.

why bother balancing? in LLSNL we rarely see the same people long enough and the ones we do, many equate balance to beam rather than a range of hands
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:16 AM   #15
dickwiggle
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post

why bother balancing? in LLSNL we rarely see the same people long enough and the ones we do, many equate balance to beam rather than a range of hands
I think balance is important for people who are playing a LAG styles (which I try to do when table dynamics/stack sizes dictate) even in 1/2, because Vs remember how you play your hand when you have the nuts or show/are caught in a bluff because a lot of people think when a person is betting it is one or the other. Maybe I'm oversimplifying.

But like i said, when I overbet i usually have something extremely strong but every once and awhile I do it with just a piece or draw and then try to get to showdown cheaply if my hand doesn't improve. If it does, then I'm already closer to getting my stack in.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:37 PM   #16
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Re: Linecheque- flopping nuts in 3! pot deep

It only matters if you plan on having a flopped monster often enough for the same Vs to see it. Since that's not usually the case you don't need to worry about it. If your read is solid that they'll fold all but the top of their range then it's not bad to over bet bluff in order to set up an over bet value spot with a monster later. Doing it with good but not great hands seems like it's wasting their value if the Vs are folding most of the time where they'd call a reasonable bet most of the time.
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