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Line check, top two on a wet board jam Line check, top two on a wet board jam

12-20-2013 , 05:22 PM
Hello everyone, thank you for taking a look and giving your advice. I greatly appreciate it.

-V1 (UTG) semi loose not so good player, seen him make a couple of bluffs out of position with complete air. Often calls down big bets with top pair and decent kicker. Stack size 300

-V2 (BTN) aggressive, observed him raise 35 preflop in a 6 way limped pot out of small blind with KK. His OOP calling range for 6x BB included J3s and other trash of the sort. Stack size 240

-Hero stack size 200

-V1 raises to 7 UTG folded to me I call with KJ and BTN calls. Pot is 24.

Flop is KJT
UTG bets 20, Hero raises to 50 and BTN re-raises to 100.
Judging on how V2 has played previous hands I push the rest of my stack.

Thoughts?
Line check, top two on a wet board jam Quote
12-20-2013 , 05:50 PM
I think you are behind more often than ahead.
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12-20-2013 , 06:46 PM
when he min raises you here i'm putting him on a range of 1 combo of JJ, 3 combos of TT, 6 combos of JT, 8 combos of AK, 16 combos of 89, 16 combos of AQ. Divided into hands we beat there are 14 combos we beat and 36 that beat us. There are way more hands in his range that we are losing too.

We still have a some equity to boat up if we are behind, but I am folding in this spot. It is a pretty nitty fold. With more reads on this player I might continue, but to me a min raise from this player means the nuts or close in this spot.
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12-20-2013 , 07:10 PM
Nice hand, don't forget KT and Qx
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12-20-2013 , 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TextheZombie
when he min raises you here i'm putting him on a range of 1 combo of JJ, 3 combos of TT, 6 combos of JT, 8 combos of AK, 16 combos of 89, 16 combos of AQ. Divided into hands we beat there are 14 combos we beat and 36 that beat us. There are way more hands in his range that we are losing too.

We still have a some equity to boat up if we are behind, but I am folding in this spot. It is a pretty nitty fold. With more reads on this player I might continue, but to me a min raise from this player means the nuts or close in this spot.

It's not a min raise.

I don't think villain shows up with JJ here very often. He seems like the type who would raise JJ pre from the button. I would discount AK also since he would raise this pre a non-zero percent of the time.

I don't expect villain to value raise 89 on this flop. Come on.

You don't include Q9 in his range? You don't include KJ, K10, or KQ?
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12-20-2013 , 09:00 PM
His cold 3-bet to $100 on this board is super strong. I hate this spot.

Your descriptions are a bit contradictory though. I wouldn't describe someone as "aggressive" bc they raise KK over a bunch of limpers and call raises with trash.

If he truly is aggressive he would 3-bet JJ,TT and AQ from the button PF so we can discount those holdings somewhat. Re-raising anything less than top 2 on this board with these stack sizes is suicidal. Need better reads.

My guess is he set-mined with TT or made a loose button call with Q9s.

I guess puke fold. In game, I probably just shove though
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12-20-2013 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValueBluff
It's not a min raise.

I don't think villain shows up with JJ here very often. He seems like the type who would raise JJ pre from the button. I would discount AK also since he would raise this pre a non-zero percent of the time.

I don't expect villain to value raise 89 on this flop. Come on.

You don't include Q9 in his range? You don't include KJ, K10, or KQ?
The main purpose of my post was to find out if that logic makes sense, you're right I missed some details.

You're right it's not min, but it is a small 3 bet.

I would not be surprised to see a raise from 89, what do you do if you have 89? Fold? call and fold when an A, Q or 9 come? or call and fold to shove on blank turn?

yes Q9, KJ, K10 should be added to the range. No I wouldn't ad KQ. Adding those 3 hands won't really change the ratio of hands we beat to hands we lose to, but thanks for pointing it out.

Would you mind maybe going through the logic with the range you would put him on, and even some math to justify a fold or call?
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12-20-2013 , 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TextheZombie

I would not be surprised to see a raise from 89, what do you do if you have 89? Fold?
Um...ya. Is that a serious question? Easiest instamuck ever?
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12-20-2013 , 09:33 PM
I'm gonna assume you're in the CO. I think I 3b pre. Raises to $7 are often weak in my experience. You have position, let's isolate. As played, I think you played flop well, if he's spewy then get it in on that flop all day.
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12-20-2013 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmanonguitar
Um...ya. Is that a serious question? Easiest instamuck ever?
Oh. Bear with me I'm a little slow. For what ever reason I thought 89 was a straight.
Line check, top two on a wet board jam Quote
12-20-2013 , 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redsoxnets5
I'm gonna assume you're in the CO. I think I 3b pre. Raises to $7 are often weak in my experience. You have position, let's isolate. As played, I think you played flop well, if he's spewy then get it in on that flop all day.
+1,

One of the biggest leaks or rather "lost" opportunities in LLSNL is that players don't 3-bet enough with hands that are likely ahead of their villain's garbage.

When you I.D. an aggro spewy donk type player who raises light then ffs 3-bet the chit out of him when you sense weakness and have a hand that is likely ahead.

I 3-bet KJs in this spot vs this player 90% of the time.

You should feel comfortable 3-betting (those type of villains) with KJ+, AT+, TT+ and repping A or K on all flops/boards if those cards hit.

Edit: especially if you are in position

Last edited by dgiharris; 12-20-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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12-20-2013 , 09:49 PM
I was gonna say 3 bet or fold. One is nitty and the other is more aggro than most if us are comfortable with. Luckily, our opponents are even more uncomfortable usually so profit. I'm not at all a fan of the spot on the flop though. Not sure what I do in game.
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12-21-2013 , 04:26 AM
I want to say this is a pretty easy fold but it depends on how bad V2 is. If he's doing this with pair+oesd then you have to stick it in. Although I think he probably just shoves a hand like that if he is going to 3b at all. The small 3b is super super strong. I'd be much more inclined to call a shove.

Thing is there are 32 combinations of straights he could plausibly have. That's a loooot. For comparison, there are only 12 combinations of worse 2p possible.

I fold.
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12-21-2013 , 04:48 AM
Idk if button raises with a straight that often on this board, there's no real need to with V1 semi-stationey semi-maniacal. If he has no concept of table dynamics it's a different story though. Unlikely button has a set.

Pretty happy to gii with top two here depending on our own image. Our own image is really important in this spot.
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12-22-2013 , 02:31 AM
I think you could have called flop and re-evaluated, possibly raise turn?

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