Look for some feedback on potential improvements for a KK hand recently.

Villain is a tight reg who I have lots of history with. He knows I think he's tight and he thinks I'm a LAG (which I am). We're ~$600 effective at $1/3. Game is 7-handed.

V opens to $18 UTG (standard), 1 LP caller and I pick up KdKh in the SB.

I raise to $60. This seems standard—I'm OOP and don't want to play this hand multi-way. Should I ever go bigger here?

V pretty quickly raises to $160, LP folds, and it's back to me.

His range is looking very strong here, QQ+ and *some* AK. Obviously I could 5-bet shove but I think that just folds out everything besides AA, so IMO the options are fold or call.

Flop ($340): Tc7c3h

I check, V bets $200.

Hero? Probably time to GII?

I would size up preflop to 4x+1 for the limper, so around $90 because OOP and 200bb deep. $75 minimum though.

Anyway, getting to the 4!, are players at 1/3 really 4betting QQ/AK especially in the tightest 3b configuration aka UTG vs SB and opening up their entire 200bb stack? Sure some players will, but without a clear read, I’d say no.

I know you said your image is LAG but I just don’t see players adjusting much. I would say 80%+ of the player pool will just flat QQ/AK in that spot.

I know I will get flamed for this, but having played 1/3 forever, I comfortably find a preflop fold in this spot. This would’ve been easier had you 3! larger pre and V still 4! you.

At 100 bb deep, I could see stacking off here, but 200 bb, KK vs AA is not a cooler, it’s a mistake. I would just fold and tell nobody.

As played, you’re left in the dark on the flop and because of this exact situation, I fold preflop. You will be amazed how often you’ll see only and only AA here. But again, opponent dependent.

I tottally agree to the VALUE part of V1 range.
It’s most likely KK-AA.

But we are missing the main question here.

The V is described as a good TAG player who have history with Hero LAG.

Both know they know each other.

So... Can V1 have a Bluff 4! Range vs SB (who plays OOP post flop), that he knows can be 3beting light?

Yes, I think he do.
What would that be?
Prob the bottom range that he cant call SB 3b.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see some ATs, AJo, KQo, JTs here.

We are out of position and going to be at a disadvantage for the rest of the hand. Calling the villain's preflop four-bet gets the SPR down to about 1.4. I like a five-bet-shove preflop.

AA versus KK happens, and when it does, KK loses unless a K shows up on the board. As a compensation, no small amount of the time KK versus QQ or JJ or AK happens. For the people who ask if the villain has a 4-bet bluffing range, AK is a big part of that range, with the understanding that once the pot gets this big, AK should be shipping because it blocks AA and KK and has decent equity versus smaller pairs. There are eight combos of AK out there, and only six of AA.

As played, on the flop, get it in.

Do we have the king of clubs? If not, I see an argument for donk-leading the flop, because we unblock club draws. With the Kc in our hand the villain has fewer draws to go with their value range.

I would personally 3bet a lot larger but that's mainly because I have a nit image and thus must offer far poorer IO (because my hand is going to be a lot more face up that yours). With your image, you're likely a lot cooler offering better IO, although I think I'd still go larger thanks to (a) tight guy just opened UTG and (b) we're a lagtard (with one of the biggest benefits being we should be able to get action on big reraises with big hands).

Honestly it's kinda gross facing the reraise this deep. With a shorter stack this guy could likely play back at aggrotard you with wider range, but deeper he's less likely to do so and simply has the ~nuts when he does it (and I'm not convinced QQ/AK is considered the ~nuts here enough). I've only folded KK 3 times preflop but I don't think I can make this my 4th (although I can see arguments for it), so I'm cool with continuing here (especially with our image).

Yeah, I think this is a good check/jam spot. Only TT moved ahead and the QQ/JJ we kept in are put in a tough spot on a drawy board against an aggrotard.

Gnicehand,IthinkG

Shove pre. He’ll be defending some QQ/AK.

For context, V and I have a lot of history. He definitely knows I'm a LAG and *also* that I rarely, if ever, flat from the blinds. I'd have no problem folding this hand to an old man or tight-passive, but V is a competent young TAG.

This definitely doesn't make this a *great* spot but it made me think he could do this with QQ/AK—he's going to (correctly) assume both fair well against my 3-bet range. That being said, I'm really not a fan of a 5-bet: how often is a 5-bet here not literally AA only? OOP is *maybe* an argument for shoving preflop but with my flat the SPR is quite manageable (reducing the advantage of position) and it keeps his worse hands in. Do we think he's ever calling a 5-bet shove with worse?

My logic was that if I *only* call he can decide QQ is good and I can x/shove a board where he'll put me on some draw (like the one that came out).

I'm really skeptical of this. When was the last time you saw a tight player stack off 200BB with QQ (especially to a 5-bet shove)?

Yeah, i agree with 5 betting pretty much turns our hand faceup as AA only at this stack depth. (Edit, isolating us against AA i meant).

Also i am with Momo on this one: most people doesent adjust (correctly) to live poker dynamics, aggro lags included. Most players take one punch after another while waiting for KK/AA to fight back. What is crucial here is how villain is adjusting to you in general, if he adjusts at all. If OP says he is a competent young TAG i guess he does.

Does he widen his 4 bet range to fight your aggro 3 bet frequenzy? Is he felting 200 blinds with for example JJ here with these positions? Is he capable of firing the flop if he whiffs with AK after 4 betting it when getting called pre or does he give up most likely?

I am not neccesarily saying we should fold, but based on population tendencies alone this is gonne be AA _alot_ compared to anything else. Also at 200 BB we are really starting to get into "possible to get away" from KK territory in my book.

Bolded is pretty spot on imo. +1.

If we think it's AA, we should just fold pre though?

It's hard to know how much he's adjusted to *this* particular setup given it's not a common scenario but I do know he overall adjusts to my LAG nature. For example:

1. 3-betting my opens with hands like AJo that he'd usually just flat.
2. Calling down with top-pair, 3rd-kicker when he'd usually fold
3. Stacking off with JJ to my 3-bet when 80BB deep.

That being said, those are all rather different from willingness to stack off 200BB deep.

Obviously this is mostly a ranging exercise, but now that I look at it I think it's a fold. Against a range of AA, KK, 1 combo of AKs and 3 combos of QQ I have 43% equity but I need 44% to stack off for $540 into a $1220 pot.

Yes: but the thing is we need to be pretty sure to make these kind of laydowns. If he is ever showing up with hands like AK/QQ at any frequenzy at all here, we folding KK is a disaster. But you have extended history with this guy, so you should be able to gauge this pretty accurately compared to facing off against a random villain.

But yeah, considering this is a TAG player i believe stackoff ranges shrinks up alot when getting at 200 BB+, so a puke fold might be the right play.

Are you 5b shoving every combo of Axs since he only has 3 combos of AA he will defend with? No? Why not?

Because a TAGs UTG open raise/4 bet range 200 blinds deep is strong as **** and crowded with AA/ KK combos?

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Because his range is heavily weighted towards AA, even if I have Axs. To be clear, I'd guess he probably calls with the one remaining combo of KK as well.

Don't forget the QQ and AK. He's folding everything but AA right so you have carte blance to bluff Axs.

If his 4b range is QQ+/AK and he only defends AA then you are folding out 24 of his 27 combos then shoving is a no brainer.

That's why these "you're never getting called by worse when you shove KK" arguments are so flimsy.

No it isnt. Because his 4 bet range arent equally splitted into identical bulks of KK/AA and AK/QQ. Villain will 4 bet KK/AA with near 100 percent frequenzy, while many villains wont auto 4 bet all their AK/QQ at this stack depth.

So, villains range is indeed crowded with KK/AA combos and GL starting to 5 bet bluff into that range for 200 blinds with Axs hands. That would be called spew or a punt if any decent player watched it happen at the tables.

There are plenty of scenarios a shove with KK will get called by worse. UTG open/4 bet 200 blinds deep from a tight villain may not be one of those scenarios. It is at least very possible.

You’re really not deep Given “standard raise” sizes of 6x.

This game is playing closer to a 2/5, so it’s a pretty easy jam preflop for 100ish bb.


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Lol. OP tells us its a 1/3 game, and you are just ignoring that saying its a 2/5 game.

Like it or not: its a 1/3 game, 200 blinds deep.

It's a deep $1/3 game. Yes it plays bigger than many $1/3 games but it definitely *doesn't* play the same as $2/5.

$600 stacks go in much tighter in this game than they would in a $2/5 game.

I never ignored OP saying it's a 1/3 game, but those are massive raise sizes especially 7-handed .

I never said it plays the same as a 2/5, but it plays closer to a 2/5 than a normal 1/3 game with 4x opens.

Therefore, I don't feel like I'm GII for 200BB with KK (which is kinda dicey). I would call preflop 200BB deep in a normal scenario, but I don't think we can given SPR resulting from huge raise sizes.

It's the same opinion I have in straddle games, but some will argue differently.

Way too small pre. I 4x facing a single raise and add an extra unit per caller. I’d be making it $90 here.

AP not sure why you’d call the 4 bet and not go for it on this board.


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OP also told us QQ is in his range which you are subjectively reducing combos of.

grunch: bigger on the 3! from OOP. shove pre. you're a lag

Looks like a tight reg's wet dream.

More pre. Tight players a this game have a 4-bet range of AA/KK, and probably not much else. There's 6 combos of AA and 1 of KK left. I'd just quietly fold and move on to the next hand. Either that or 5-bet shove. I don't like the flat. Because 80% of the time this is the result you are going to get. You call, a low flop comes, now you face a big bet with no real additional information. Shove now and then what? He calls QQ where he wouldn't have before? Hope he's bluffing AK?

Don't level yourself into thinking he's making a move here. If you think he's got that in his playbook, then consider it in your range analysis, but I'd just stick with the read of he's a tight player. Tight players don't adjust or make big preflop moves all that often. Preflop discipline tends to be a hallmark of their game. Remember, he opened UTG against the whole table. He wasn't just playing you when he did that. His UTG open range is already pretty tight. It's not like he opened the button, or 3-bet your button open. His range is going to be a LOT stronger here.