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Old 09-19-2018, 02:08 PM   #1
DumbosTrunk
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Line check KK

Hi all,

1/3. Hero has tight image, doesn't play many hands. Hero ($300) has KcKh UTG and limps planning on l/rr. Four limpers behind and BB checks. Pot $16.

Flop: Kd-3c-8c. Hero bets $11, UTG+1 (MABG, reg, $250) raises $22, all fold to hero who calls. What is V's range otf? How should we play our hand given that range?

Pot $55.

Turn: 6d. Hero checks, V bets $35, hero c/r $70. V calls. Pot $195.

River: 6s. Hero? Feedback on all streets appreciated.

Thanks,
DT
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:24 PM   #2
tmo1120
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Re: Line check KK

ok well I like an open pre to anywhere around 20 ish; unless table is very active and you think you could get someone to open , these games are just too passive in general and your in the dark when a free flop comes out.

when he min raises you he has FD's , sets, and some rare kx's (you block most of these)
I think you could actually re-pop him on the flop I don't think he is ever minraising light.
If you have him coolered (set over set) you wanna inflate the pot here (a club could slow down action) and charge his draws the max


AP on the turn I think you could size up for sure; don't be afraid of scaring him off , he clearly likes his hand after min-raising and then leading; id say 3-4 x so 120 ish and then jam the river;


OTR I don't think he would bluff shove on you with a busted club draw after getting c/r'd on the turn; I would just jam on the river so he doesn't have the option of checking back
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:43 PM   #3
Garick
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Re: Line check KK

Grunch:

I'm fine with the L/RR plan. Now we flopped top set on a dry board and got min-raised? Sweet! Raise it up! Almost no one has a raise/fold range OTF at 1/3. There are basically no comb-draws available. He has basically bare FDs and 2P+, with a sprinkling of Kx "seeing where it's at." A flush card will kill your hand or you action, so get value now. You lose potential value to Kx, but you weren't getting much from it anyway. make it about $55.

AP, bleh. If you must wait t the turn before raising, at least make it big enough to GII easily OTR. Still gotta shove river, but i think we lost a ton of value.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:44 PM   #4
stlows
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Re: Line check KK

you played your hand way too passively... like a guy who has the nts and dont want the other to fold.

You need to take control of betting lead.

raise pre. Wy did you l/rr? any tells of anyone wanted to raire pre/very active table?

on the flop, I like your donk (why 11 tho... I prefer 10, or 15 to save the dealer's time to give change = more hands/hour). When he raises to 22, he like shis hand. I repop here to 60.

AP, good check on turn and I like the x/r but again you need to go bigger.

OTT, Pot is 60 and you have 225 eff. If you make it 90-100 (no need to go higher I think, except you have a tell that he is sticky and doesnt fold a K here), he'll probably call with lower set, FD, 2p, maybe KQ) and its gonna be easier to get stacks on the river (135 in 240, if my math is right)

AP, OTR just jam 156 in 195...
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:49 PM   #5
football0020
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Re: Line check KK

I don't think planning a limp-raise with AA/KK from UTG is ever good. It might be warranted in some lineups with maniacs or insane action, but even then a standard open might get 3-bet a large % of the time.

As played, gotta bet bigger on the flop, at least 15 but I'd go 20. Money in early means the pot will be bigger by the river, meaning some derp might stack off because "pot oddz!" Also, anyone who calls 11 is gonna call 15-20. You should also c/r turn a bit bigger than just a min-raise, again to set a more reasonable price on the river shove.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:52 PM   #6
shorn7
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Re: Line check KK

Only LRR if you are certain someone is going to raise. Mostly, just raise for value.

Dream scenario on the flop. I deffo bet/3! here after the min-raise and then bet/bet turn and river. Just make sure you get your whole stack in.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:57 PM   #7
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Re: Line check KK

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Grunch:

I'm fine with the L/RR plan. Now we flopped top set on a dry board and got min-raised? Sweet! Raise it up! Almost no one has a raise/fold range OTF at 1/3. There are basically no comb-draws available. He has basically bare FDs and 2P+, with a sprinkling of Kx "seeing where it's at." A flush card will kill your hand or you action, so get value now. You lose potential value to Kx, but you weren't getting much from it anyway. make it about $55.

AP, bleh. If you must wait t the turn before raising, at least make it big enough to GII easily OTR. Still gotta shove river, but i think we lost a ton of value.
This, although I don't think shoving river will get called by anything except another full house. Lost a ton of value I might have led turn and definitely would have raised more if I went that route. Maybe bet $100 on the river and pray he thinks you are weak and will shove.
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:02 PM   #8
Viral25
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Re: Line check KK

As per usual, i dislike the l/rr tactic. To the people in this forum who are going to say that when we raise we are likely gonna get 4-5 callers and we have to play an awkward hand MW and OOP, i say:

1: look at the result in the OP, how is this better?
2: learning to make tough postflop decisions >>>>> value cutting yourself pre constantly.

/end rant.

AP, i like the b/c on the flop, he often has a weakish hand that can't stand a 3bet. On the turn his range should be more condensed, so the raise is fine, but holy hell that sizing is bad . Make it 100-120 to deny him some drawing odds and set up a easily callable river shove.
AP on the river, shove and hope he has 88 or 33.
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:10 PM   #9
QuadJ
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Re: Line check KK

You can debate a lot of points here. Limp/raise preflop is a very situational tactic and most low stakes tables are too loose/passive for it. When you get min raised on the flop 3 betting then will often be good. When you check/raise the turn you should go bigger to setup a better river shoving size. No matter how you got there shove river is obvious. Won't get called very often but your line has been unavoidably absurdly strong.

The only real mistake here is check/raising the turn. You really need to lead the turn. If villain has a lower set they will often raise you. If they are on a flush draw they will often check behind. Other hands are mostly done once you call flop. Villain has to be really bad before leading turn isn't the best option.

As for your question about villain flop range. Lower sets are obvious. Some villain will do this with flush draws, often to prevent you from betting turn. Some will do this with a single pair to see how strong your hand is. A very small number can make total air bluffs. The really total fish might turn up with other hands or plays but it's super rare.
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:22 PM   #10
johnnyBuz
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Re: Line check KK

3bet the flop and keep betting

The fact that you have over a PSB remaining on the river is criminal.
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:23 PM   #11
DumbosTrunk
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Re: Line check KK

Why is everyone advocating shoving river? If he had a lower set this was GII OTT, no? So I heavily discount lower sets. If he happened to have a set, he's jamming over whatever I bet anyway, so why not bet smaller to get calls out of the weaker part of his range (Kx)? Maybe he thinks he has FE with missed NFD?
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:25 PM   #12
WereBeer
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Re: Line check KK

You need a good reason to LRR and I didn't hear one.

Get more money in quicker.

AP jam river.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:11 PM   #13
DumbosTrunk
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Re: Line check KK

Thanks. So I bet smaller otr because I wasn’t sure how strong he was after he just called my c/r ott. Went just $65. He almost folded! He ultimately called with KQ.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:18 PM   #14
Garick
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Re: Line check KK

That's just such a small part of his range and you had a super strong line and got a good runout. Against his whole range though, you lost a ton of value.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:38 PM   #15
wowsooooted
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Re: Line check KK

deffo 3b flop, we flopped the nuts so want to be able to get all the money in by the river, 3b here makes that much easier, esp being oop.

Having the Kc is nice too, we pick up f draws on club turns and remove one of his outs if he is on the club draw, also having trips is good on flush board as we can boat up.
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:04 AM   #16
Homey D. Clown
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Re: Line check KK

I don't mind the occasional l/rr (I sometimes try it myself, but the plan nearly always fails miserably lol), but the problem with it is (also) that you pick up too many small pots pre-flop, while the real money is obviously being made post-flop.

On the flop, bet 15-20. As played, you could definitely 3bet, but calling is fine too imo. However, you should have provided more reads about the guy. Especially about his aggressiveness. On the turn I sort of like leading, but if I'm confident he will bet again, I'd c/r as well. Obviously much bigger than this, your sizing is just criminal. You have top set on a flushdraw board and you got raised. If you're not trying your best to play for stacks in this dream situation, you just simply hate money. You're only 100bb effective.

Reading your topics I get the feeling you like to throw around all these random concepts (like itt, when you're targeting "the weaker part of his range") in order to make us believe you know what you're talking about, but essentially it looks like you're just clicking buttons most of the time.
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Old 09-20-2018, 04:37 AM   #17
DumbosTrunk
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Re: Line check KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown View Post
I don't mind the occasional l/rr (I sometimes try it myself, but the plan nearly always fails miserably lol), but the problem with it is (also) that you pick up too many small pots pre-flop, while the real money is obviously being made post-flop.

On the flop, bet 15-20. As played, you could definitely 3bet, but calling is fine too imo. However, you should have provided more reads about the guy. Especially about his aggressiveness. On the turn I sort of like leading, but if I'm confident he will bet again, I'd c/r as well. Obviously much bigger than this, your sizing is just criminal. You have top set on a flushdraw board and you got raised. If you're not trying your best to play for stacks in this dream situation, you just simply hate money. You're only 100bb effective.

Reading your topics I get the feeling you like to throw around all these random concepts (like itt, when you're targeting "the weaker part of his range") in order to make us believe you know what you're talking about, but essentially it looks like you're just clicking buttons most of the time.
Very constructive post up to this point.

I agree with you all that the c/r ott should have been bigger.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 09-20-2018 at 04:49 AM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:52 AM   #18
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Re: Line check KK

I would just 3-bet the flop. Our hand is incredibly disguised and we want to make sure all the money goes in vs two pair or a set and we don't want to risk opponent checking back the turn with a draw. I would make it $60 on the flop planning to bet turn and shove river.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:26 AM   #19
HawkesDave
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Re: Line check KK

As played, I don't hate the smaller river bet. If V has 88 he's shoving over top. The only hand you lose value to at that point by not betting larger is if V has 33 and decides to just call, which is probably likely.

I agree with others regarding previous streets, though. On that flop, it's possible V has 2p (even though you strongly block the realistic 2p hands) and thinks you're overplaying a flush draw. If he has 88/33 you need to get stacks in. You also have the chance that he himself is the one overplaying an AcXc flush draw and he might convince himself he's priced in to call the flop. Maybe you should even consider a min-raise 3b on the flop in this case since you block the board so heavily and want to keep him hooked. A smart player might realize you're heavily weighted towards KK or 88 with such a bet, but your average 1/2 player is generally pretty oblivious.

As far as his range, KQ/KJ or a weakly played AK are probably the only 3 hands that are raising you here that might fold to a flop 3b, but you block those so heavily that I think a 3b makes sense.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:30 AM   #20
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Re: Line check KK

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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
He almost folded!
It's really just as likely that he almost folded b/c it was such an obvious suck bet. An all in looks a lot more bluffy. People also underestimate the value of NOT showing down. Say you shove and he folds KQ. All night he will wonder if he made the right laydown. This may cause future mistakes against you to the tune of a coupla buyins instead of a measly 65 bucks. I try to show down no more than 5-10% of my hands, and if you want to see my hand, you will hafta pay me what I think it is worth (in this case, my stack).

Further, if the rest of the hand is played better, your bet of 65 OTR IS your allin amount, and his odds are so much better that he simply has to call.
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:28 AM   #21
ImAllInNow
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Re: Line check KK

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All night he will wonder if he made the right laydown. This may cause future mistakes against you to the tune of a coupla buyins instead of a measly 65 bucks..
You can't possibly be saying that not showing down your hand here is worth more than 22 BBs on average? Sure some of the time he'll make a bad play against you, but come on. 22 BBs is massive and we should take that any day of the week to show our hand.
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:17 PM   #22
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Re: Line check KK

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Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
You can't possibly be saying that not showing down your hand here is worth more than 22 BBs on average? Sure some of the time he'll make a bad play against you, but come on. 22 BBs is massive and we should take that any day of the week to show our hand.
He's not and you're presenting a straw-man argument.
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:44 AM   #23
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Re: Line check KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
1/3. Hero has tight image, doesn't play many hands. Hero ($300) has KcKh UTG and limps planning on l/rr. Four limpers behind and BB checks. Pot $16.
Who were you counting on to raise pre, AND call you're l/rr from UTG? If no one, then raise pre. You're using fancy plays in un fancy spots.

Raise the flop, money should be in ott.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:39 PM   #24
jtm1208
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Re: Line check KK

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Hi all,

1/3. Hero has tight image, doesn't play many hands. Hero ($300) has KcKh UTG and limps planning on l/rr. Four limpers behind and BB checks. Pot $16.

Flop: Kd-3c-8c. Hero bets $11, UTG+1 (MABG, reg, $250) raises $22, all fold to hero who calls. What is V's range otf? How should we play our hand given that range?

Pot $55.

Turn: 6d. Hero checks, V bets $35, hero c/r $70. V calls. Pot $195.

River: 6s. Hero? Feedback on all streets appreciated.

Thanks,
DT
I'll be honest, I think you played every street of this hand poorly.

Unless there is an extremely active player raising a lot and never folding to 3-bet and 4-bet's, it's much more profitable to just simply enter with bet, at the 1-3 stakes I'm coming in between $10-$15 depending on how the table is playing.

OTF (as played): If I lead and get min-raised OOP with top set, I am not flatting. People don't min-raise fold flops at this level. I'm raising it back to $50-60 range. This makes it much easier to get stacks in by the river.

Turn (as played): checking is fine as long as you plan on check-raising. opponent bets about 60% pot ($35), I'm raising to $90-105, setting up a less than pot size river shove while extracting max value from all of his draws that continue. Min-raising leaves you in an awkward spot on the river where shoving all in is around pot or more AND it also gives a good price to his draws to continue.

River: bet the biggest amount that you think will get called.
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