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Old 03-26-2014, 05:30 PM   #1
VashaMan01
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Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Hello everyone, thank you for taking a look.

Hero (MP) - 630 playing TAG, have only went to showdown with winners. Table image is that I am a solid player.

Villian (UTG+1) - 700 solid Asian player. Mostly plays TAG but I have seen him make a few bluffs and semi-bluffs. We were having a conversation about a hand where we both folded but ended up having a boat on the river and he told me that he would be reluctant to get this stack in the middle against me and that if he did I would be able to fold on the river (saying that the only way that I would call a river AI is that if I had the nuts). His favorite hand is T9s. Table was playing kind weird at this point, no real flow so observed him raise 8 pre with KK in MP, 10 with AA UTG. Overall his range was pretty tight but he will sneak in with suited connectors if he feels the situation is right.

Limped to Villian and he makes it 8 (UTG+1) UTG+2 calls and I make it 35 with AK, villian is the only one that calls.

Flop is (70) 78K. checked to me I make it 45 he calls.

Turn is (160) K checked to me I make it 90, Villian raises to 200. My thought process at this point was why would he raise here? Most often if he flopped a set he should have CR the on the flop. He would also check raise the flop with lets just say two pair, OESFD with T9/69(but I doubt he call with this for 35 pre OOP.). He could have also called with AK KQ KJ KTs (prob a stretch) AA QQ JJ TT 99, JTs AQs AKs AJs. So when he check raised the turn it seemed like there are more combos of hands that he would have a strong K, FD, or combo draw. I call.

River is (560)a Q he shoves for 450 putting me in a decision to have to put in 350 into a 910 pot.

What do you guys think his range would look like for this hand? Seems like there are more combos of hands here that are draws and or K/draw hand /combo draws then there are hands that dominate me. The only hands that have me beat here are 77 88 KQ and QQ, unlikely he has K7 or K8.

Hero?

Last edited by VashaMan01; 03-26-2014 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:50 PM   #2
just_grindin
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The K of hearts is a terrible card to bluff on the turn in a vacuum.

If he knows you can fold a boat and you never have a boat here then it could be a call I guess.

I'd still probably fold. Hard for me to construct a solid TAG 3 bet calling range that contains hands that bluff with this line that make sense for villain to turn into bluffs.

Edit: I guess this all assumes he never has worse for value on the river which may be ridiculous.

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Old 03-26-2014, 05:59 PM   #3
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by VashaMan01 View Post
My thought process at this point was why would he raise here? Most often if he flopped a set he should have CR the on the flop.
Slowplayer gotta slowplay.

Fold. Not losing 300BB here. What are we beating? KQ just smoked us, and I'm not sure he has that going into the river.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:11 PM   #4
Troyble
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Tough hand for sure. I fold on the river. He has KQ, 88, or 77 here a lot.

If he was going to c/r with a diamond draw, I give this villain credit for being smart enough to do so on the flop, not the turn. The only reasonable value hands you beat/chop with are AK and KJs. And I think he probably check/calls the river with KJs.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:18 PM   #5
wj94
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

V repping pretty thin here and the Q should be a scare card for him if he has 77/88. I'd call it off.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:36 PM   #6
just_grindin
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Just realized I glossed over information I would need to come to the conclusion above:

How many players total in the game?

Is opponent positionally aware?

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Old 03-26-2014, 06:41 PM   #7
fizzypants
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Villain had KQdd OP?
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:59 PM   #8
VashaMan01
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Opponent was positionally aware, and the action was folded back to him. Once it got to him there was one more player left to make a decision. He told me that he plays online a good deal (maybe useful info maybe not).
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:18 AM   #9
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

V should be pretty nutted here
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:26 AM   #10
triggerc5
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Would anyone ever re raise the turn here and get it all in
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:28 AM   #11
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Given the fact that you had a convo previously with him about this situation... I would call. It seems like he's trying to push you off your hand.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:38 AM   #12
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

I'm really curious as to what the results are. I personally probably puke call this because you are getting almost 3:1. I also believe however, that villan shows up with 77, 88, KQdd alot of the time.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:39 AM   #13
Weeks
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Originally I was thinking there was enough hands in vs range to make this a call.

-Given info of V I think we have to fold.

- he is pretty tight but will mix in SC given situation. He should be aware calling a 3bet OOP is not that spot in a HU pot.

- Like you said he would prolly c/r his big draws on the flop. Let's say his plan was to cr the turn, when the K peels you check behind a decent percentage of the time and when you call his raise he is dead on the river and must cf if draw is missed.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:49 AM   #14
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He had his favorite hand 10-9 right?
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:09 AM   #15
just_grindin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VashaMan01 View Post
Opponent was positionally aware, and the action was folded back to him. Once it got to him there was one more player left to make a decision. He told me that he plays online a good deal (maybe useful info maybe not).
How many people total playing? 8 handed? 9 handed? I looked over the post again and I didn't see it.

It should effect his opening range significantly if he is positionally aware which would obviously effect his calling range.

Really hard for me to see villain with anything but KQdd here for value. Which makes me want to call bc it's such a small range and people do crazy things a non-zero part of the time and that is significany when your only value hand his 1 combination.

Have you seen v turn made hands into bluffs?

Edit: Sorry should have included AK for the chop in there as well.

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Old 03-27-2014, 02:21 PM   #16
VashaMan01
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

The table was 9 handed. I ended up calling and he showed 88.
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Old 03-27-2014, 02:33 PM   #17
Fsy8016
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Such a sick river. I don't think villain is shoving on the river with anything less than a boat and I don't weigh bluffs that heavily in his range. If he has OESFD on the flop I think it's likely we would have seen a C/R, as you mentioned. If he were to take the passive line with draws then the turn is a terrible spot to C/R because what does he fold out? QQ, JJ and MAYBE AA given the previous conversation so I think he's gotta be raising the turn for value (KQ, AK, KJ(?), 88, 77). The river pretty much seals any chance that we are winning because KQ got there and that's the only hand we could have gotten reasonable value out of. I would probably sigh fold and expect to be shown KQ here a ton. If he has Td9d then terrific for him, his line made like zero sense.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:36 PM   #18
Lapidator
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Doesn't look to me like you have the equity to call. Puke fold.

Also...

AK Facing Aggression

Last edited by Lapidator; 03-27-2014 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:38 PM   #19
Gilmour
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Maybe i am resultoriented from reading results, but does villain ever showing up without a boat here? I mean 9 out of 10 times he probably has a boat.

Puke fold, like several people have already mentioned.

Edit: Yeah, remember that thread Lapidator- very good discussion.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:44 PM   #20
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

i snap it off personally

bc hes competent and asian he should have a soewhat wide range

Q is a bad card but i still snap
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:58 PM   #21
just_grindin
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If villain knows hero could fold a boat there are a ton of hands that hero plays exactly the same way that could fold to this action.

If hero's 3 bet range is JJ+ AK, and we are villain w/o a king or other shared cards hero has exactly 1 combo 4 of a kind, 3 combos boats, 6 combos 3 of a kind, and 12 combos of 2 pair on the turn.

Villain could probably get you to fold half your range or more on this river with hands like 78, or KJ.

Edit: KJ may not bet for you to fold, but hands like 99-JJ would definitely benefit.

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Old 03-27-2014, 04:12 PM   #22
Diceman
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

oh the reverse implied odds of AK. If we're that deep and I'm in MP, I don't think I'd be 3betting that hand pre, especially against a competent player
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:15 PM   #23
scelsi
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Live players @ 1/2 aren't shipping 225BB into a 600BB pot without what they consider the nuts, which in this case is all boats and KQs, of which only two combos (KQdd, KQss) exist.

I'm not convinced that flatting AKo isn't better - you don't want to play a huge pot this deep against a competent player without nutted hands, on which boards he'll likely catch enough of a part of to allow you to inflate the pot postflop.

A competent player as you described likely c/r flop with a set, given the FD. The turn raise is polarized to semi bluffs (OESFD, KQdd) and sets - many more set combos than the two draws that could be raised. Side note: you say you doubt he calls T9dd/69dd. I agree that he probably doesn't OPEN the latter, however T9dd is definitely a b/c this deep. You're not isoing light, and T9dd plays well deep - granted, V is OOP, but I still think he calls a 5% raise relative to stack pre.

No one bluffs the river AI with a missed draw when you b/c OTT. The open shove is for value; he's afraid you'll check behind, maybe given your earlier convo (but I doubt it; probably just thinks "omg boat shove" )

Biggest mistake is not betting the flop, imho.

Last edited by scelsi; 03-27-2014 at 04:17 PM. Reason: thoughts
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:42 PM   #24
just_grindin
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If we know where 3 kings are there is only 1 suited KQ combo left, and that is KQdd.

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Old 03-27-2014, 06:54 PM   #25
VashaMan01
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Re: Line Check AKo 300bb deep - 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by scelsi View Post
Live players @ 1/2 aren't shipping 225BB into a 600BB pot without what they consider the nuts, which in this case is all boats and KQs, of which only two combos (KQdd, KQss) exist.

I'm not convinced that flatting AKo isn't better - you don't want to play a huge pot this deep against a competent player without nutted hands, on which boards he'll likely catch enough of a part of to allow you to inflate the pot postflop.

A competent player as you described likely c/r flop with a set, given the FD. The turn raise is polarized to semi bluffs (OESFD, KQdd) and sets - many more set combos than the two draws that could be raised. Side note: you say you doubt he calls T9dd/69dd. I agree that he probably doesn't OPEN the latter, however T9dd is definitely a b/c this deep. You're not isoing light, and T9dd plays well deep - granted, V is OOP, but I still think he calls a 5% raise relative to stack pre.

No one bluffs the river AI with a missed draw when you b/c OTT. The open shove is for value; he's afraid you'll check behind, maybe given your earlier convo (but I doubt it; probably just thinks "omg boat shove" )

Biggest mistake is not betting the flop, imho.
Good point, I do think he calls this with T9. I do not think he shows up with 69 is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
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