this is $1/$2 , $450 eff stacks ,

v1 is a tag, straightforward player, has bet/4! hands like AA/KK pre , i have not seen him showdown any bluffs or lose any big pots

v2 is a huge spewy callbox donk , $300 eff

hero is white 30 y/o , have been steadily winning / building my stack , i am big stack on the table. I have bet some semi-thin b/f spots and have gotten called / been good. I have been betting / cbetting frequently and have been receiving folds , i have also have been catching good cards but not having to show down much. People probably see me as an aggressive player.

onto the hand ,

I have 22 OTB

v1 limps UTG , v2 raises to $15 from EP , CO calls , I call , v1 calls

flop ($60) 2 T 6 ...

v1 donks $20 . I immediately think that this size seems like a really small blocking type bet. v2 calls the $20 , i raise pretty small, to $60.

v1 calls pretty quickly , as does v2

turn ($240) A ... azn quickly bets $100 . I think there is no way he is betting $100 here into two players without a flush, when v2 calls 100% of the time with every flushdraw he has. This seems like a pretty fearless bet. I imagine he probably would have re-raised me otf if he had a set.

v2 calls the $100 . Pot is now $440 and $100 to call . v1 has $275 behind and v2 has $125.

hero?

this is pretty trivial... I am always going to give V1 credit for a flush here. If for some reason he has changed up his game and is doing this with an AceTen as some sort of weird combo play (bluff/value) bet, so be it, but I am always going to give him credit for the flush.

with that assumption, you have direct odds to call the 100 and hope that the board pairs on the river. you are 25% to make a boat.

if the board pairs. bet as much on the river as you think that V1 will pay off.

if it bricks, fold to any bet over 80.

I don't like your small re-raise on the flop.
What's your plan when the flush hits?
I'd either flat call - and make my move on the turn - or reraise to make it too expensive for flush draws to call.
The way it's played - you're building a pot that gives any FD the right price to call.

If one player has the flush draw, what are you putting the other on?
There's really no str8 draw. I'm not really sure your reads are correct.
Feels like someone else may have two pair or a set as well (although poorly played).

I'm hating the spot you're in now... but it's probably a call to see the river.

Raise flop to $95. As played call and pair the board.

Just because the guy donk lead small shouldn't mean your raise should be small. If you felt like its a blocker bet make him pay 90+ as played you have to flat reevaluate but for some reason I'm more worried about v2

Hand is very vulnerable on the flop against two. The way it's played we are saying "it's ok if you catch the flush cause we got outs." Post flop healthy raise and make it expensive to draw.

The donk bet otf, from a bad player, is usually a top pair "feeler bet." However, from a good TAG, I think about half the time is is betting an overpair or set for value, and half the time he is betting the flush draw.

If you add it up, you gave him odds to draw. That's why people are saying you should have raised more otf.

So now you have 10 outs, like 20% equity. Yeow that's close. Up to you (in other words, you are indifferent as to calling or folding). Me, with deep stacks like this, I would find it easier to fold, but its six of one, half dozen of the other.

Wouldn't you rather call with deep stacks? V2 will very likely pay off a river bet, and V1 may as well. We have direct odds to draw to the boat (although our outs aren't 100% clean) and we will almost certainly get V2's stack in on the river. The only debate is whether to jam or bet small to get the crying call from V1 as he will probably realize his flush just got drawn out on. I'm thinking with pot/stack sizes its a jam on the river.

I'm calling because of the deep stacks

1. Good point on the implied odds!
2. I'm thinking, "protect my stack." But I see the logic in, "We have enough capital to finance this venture."

Indifferent is indifferent, although with the implied odds, we aren't really indifferent. I just feel its within margin of error for calculations at the table. Depends on how much we think these dudes will call otr if we hook up.

Course I'm feeling like a nit today. Ask me tonight when I have a head full of whisky and nicotine! Then I won't be so doggone indifferent.

I would raise to around 100 OTF to price out draws, as played I would call turn with immediate odds to improve.

by "to price out draws", you don't mean that you want the draws to fold, correct? you still want them to call, just you want them paying a bit too much, right?

Curios that V1 was pushing his non-nut flush draw so hard...

After thinking about this I'm not convinced that he must have a flush. Looks like aces-up to me.

But seems like as played the right move is to flat OTT and call OTR unless you boat when you obviously shove.

Yeah if they call getting incorrect odds that benefits us.

ok. you hear people saying, "i don't want a call so i bet as much as it would take to make them fold" all the time. wanted to make sure that wasn't what you were saying. thanks.

so hard? he bets 1/3rd pot , then flatted my raise otf ... then bets out less than 1/2 pot

so i flatted the 100 thinking i have odds to call for a boat + implied .. river bricks and v1 shoves allin for $275 , i fold

I think this is fine. I raise a bit more on the flop but otherwise looks good

Grunch:

Not sure what the flop raise is trying to accomplish. I like making it 70-75 more to go.

OTT it looks like you have boat odds so calling is ok. Should be able to make some additional money on river if you hit.

Raise flop to 85.

Call now to boat mine.

Yeah. Seems fine besides raising flop I like to 95.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using 2+2 Forums

Raise flop larger to get fat value from V2 and charge V1's draws. On the turn there's no other decision than to call.

I dunno... I don't see TAGs making blocking bets with small flush draws from OOP.

Once the A hits, his FD range starts to collapse to KQ, QJ and J9. And doesn't he open UTG with KQs?

The only other FD I'd put him on is 76 and 65. But I don't see why he puts out a blocking bet and with these.

89s, 54s, 34s .. AT here is really the only hand i beat , and since he limp/called i thought its probably unlikely he has AT here. I also dont think he'd play AT so strongly especially after I raise the flop, he calls, *and* v2 calls who can never fold a draw. When the spade turns, i dont think a nitty tag donks $100 here. After we both call, i dont think he shoves the blank river with jsut two pair either.

the more i think about this hand, the more i wonder if i boated the river , would i have gotten stacked. If he had a set he may have played it this way. Limp call, donk/call , another spade comes and so he bets out but not really a huge bet. A value bet but also one that defines if his set is still good. We both flat , and now he feels like his set is still good so he shoves. I think a flush plays this the same way.

that is really why i posted this hand. I knew it was close but i had the odds to call for a boat , *if* my outs were clean ... it seems everyone overwhelmingly said , call because you have odds. Very little mention of if i call and hit , i can still get stacked here some of the time. Not to mention if villain does have AT , and a A or T peels i get stacked as well.

also wanted to hear opinions of calling the shove otr .. but seems like everyone is in agreeance with a fold

in response to all the comments of raise to 80, 90, even 100 ... raising to 100 likely gets 2 folds from worse hands. Raising to 80 i think wouldve been better , but i dont mind raising to 60 here and feel fine when a non spade peels the turn the majority of the time and now pot has built to 240 so it'd b easy to play for stacks. You dont always have to raise a huge amount to deny draws. This also keeps other hands in play that might fold to a larger raise. The 20% of the time or so that a flushcard does peel , if villain comes out gunning i dont have to pay him off, i can fold the turn... but since he bet so small and got called, i was getting enough i felt for a call directly without implied , and the pot would be big enough for villain to almost have to commit the rest of his stack had board paired.

Ashes at 1/2 most villain calling ranges are rather inelastic particularly on the flop and particularly with drawing hands. Ofc you will run into some thinking players who's ranges won't be so inelastic but that doesn't seem to be the case against described villains (at least V2 for sure)

So I don't think there is a huge diff between raising to 80 or 100