Here is a little background. Villain is a very lag regular on the very spewy side. I doubt he’s break even, he just puts himself in bad spots constantly. He loves 3betting light. I would say he probably 3bets around 20%. He loves to 3bet in the blinds and on the button. We have a bit of history but nothing too outrageous. I know he sees me as being more of the TAG type but knows I can raise to isolate, especially on the button and I can 3bet light at times.

So here is the hand.

Me and villain about 1.3k effective.

Two limpers, habitual limpers (100b deep both of them) and it comes on me on the button with A8o. I raise to $35, sb folds and villain in BB 3bets to $135. Both limpers fold and it’s on me. I 4bet to 305$. He thanks for a bit and calls.

At that point, I think his range his pretty wide. He can definitely be stubborn at times. He would most likely push QQ+ and AK. He knows he has a wild imagine and will push those hands pre. If he’s slowplaying one of them, it would be AA but since I have a blocker, that’s highly unlikely.

So there is about 720$ on the flop. Flop is T73 rainbow. He checks and I bet 310$. He tanks and calls.

At this point, I think he has a pair. Could be a pair of Tens (not a set) , Jacks, mid pair or even bottom pair or something like 88, 99, 66. I think sets are quite unlikely here as he sees me as pretty tight and probably would have raised me right then and there thinking I would stack off with an overpair.

Turn is an 8, which gives me a pair, he checks and I shove. There is a chance I have the best hand, but I think his range is strongly towards a ten. Even though hes spewy, I think he realises I’ll have a big pair here most of the time as he has never seen me made this play before. I have 4bet before but have always shown the goods when I did and he was on the table.

I look forward hearing feedback. For the nits out there who say fold pre, I’m not interested in hearing that. To me against this villain, the only 2 plays pre are either to call in position or 4bet. From there, please give me your line.

Hmmmm, what?

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I was willing to help until this attitude came up... So, nevermind. Maybe you should listen to someone's reasoning, whether or not it supports you before you dismiss anything. Isn't that the point of the forums?

Fold pre-flop. If you don't like that feedback then learn how to play poker.


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Also, why is it only a flat or 4 bet here? Is it because you like dick measuring contests?

I'd argue its a 4bet or fold spot.

To me, super lags are scariest when they are just flatting big bets. If you do have fe, I think he puts you on a straight more than a big pair.

just lolololololol.

glad he called with his 10 and got your whole stack. you deserved it

Honnestly, just open fold button with two limpers in front of you. Given you raised 4betting is fine against this villian especially with your image (flatting would be terrible btw). Check back on turn: You have the best hand some of the time and he calls with a better hand quite a lot of the time (because he 'puts you on AK'). I know you have a good image, but these villains don't like to fold.

One of the reasons why you are supposed to fold preflop is that in this exact spot, a spewy Villain could easily have you beat here and call, whereas a tighter player would have already folded a lot of the hands that now beat you, like Tx or even QQ/JJ.

You are in a lose-lose situation on the flop and on the turn, and the reason is because of preflop.

Is it just me or have there lately been a lot of threads starting from "I'm going to push $1k+ against a LAG because the way to beat a LAG is to spew worse than he does"?

Based on YOUR 2 choices, flat pre and opt to play ip against a lesser-skilled opponent. Float flop, bet turn if checked to, otherwise fold.

As played and using your range, A8 is crushed. Play has zero SD equity, clearly banking on huge FE.

very mean statement. i agree, this hand is butchered, but that´s quite a nasty statement.

OP, you won´t hear much good strategical advise in this thread, although i think you should work on your basics before going into dick measuring contests with other lags. you seem to have some pretty basic flaws in your game/thinking. it is key to learn basic concepts before attempting to play gangsta-lag mode, believe me that. my advise is to learn basics; then you can take it one step further.

as for the hand, it will be very hard to turn this hand +EV, whatever you do. probably open fold/overlimp this hand. imo everything else is a pretty big mistake preflop.

I think that's a good turn to check back no?

Also, I don't understand why people try and make plays against Villains with this description... just sit back and let them value own themselves

Obv tighten up raising range in general v this guy. Raising A8 is OK if limpers are super weak but just fold to his three bet.

Your equity v his three bet is not great (stick some hands into stove) but worse than that is that A8o just flops absolutely awful. Just because somebody has a big bluffing range doesn't mean we can never fold/automatically turn a profit.

You are going to have much better hands to flat with so giving up this part of your range is fine.

4! is better than flatting but given you think he still has a "pretty wide range" when he calls and you think he is 5 balling his premiums you don't have much FE.

Seems like you just have a "this guy has a wide range so I'm never, ever folding A8o mentality, which will get you destroyed.

Yeah, it sounds terrible having to say "fold to his 3Bet" and even tough for me to swallow when you describe him but being successful vs. this guy or avoiding this guy is obviously what you want and in this case, it is avoiding.

However, as played, he is totally just flatting with what, KTos at worst here, which is unlikely. He likely has QQ+ and wants you to punt more at him because like you said, he knows you are more of the TAG type and wants you to play into him more often when his solid 3Bets are good to go.

Original question was line check? The only line problem is after the flop. You hit your pair, but are you ahead and is a shove the mathematical and logical best play, or is maybe looking at the metagame of the situation and saying "Well, I could ease up, he might see it as a lot of strength, for both in this hand, and later on, and I will win more long term against him in the spots where he is spewy and I am capitalizing on that" not vice versa, correct?

I hope that was constructive and in no way belittling, we are all here to talk and learn.

Thanks for the post, it was a nice one to read at work

well he came off as a dick in op saying he was basically right and didn't want to hear "fold pre" which all good players know is the correct play.

hey OP, FOLD PRE!!!!!!!!!!

If he's as wide as you say he is then A8 is likely the best hand and 4 betting seems ok.

Your confident that he 5 bets all premiums, so his check/call line means what? A pair 22-TT, or a draw 89s,J9s? I assume you think he always raises sets on the flop? I'm not sure that this would be the case but you play with him so, that's what we'll go with.

If you check behind on the turn does he bomb 100% of rivers? That seems to be what this hand boils down to. If I checked the turn, I'd be calling the river almost always. Because you think he has a ton of Tx in his range, you can't do this. So yeah I guess you have to bet the turn.(although I would think the 8 hits him pretty hard?) Does this guy ever fold top pair though? 4 bet/bet/shove obviously looks strong and should have a ton of FE, especially if you have a good image/history.

If your willing to live with the variance here, sure. He never folds a hand that has a pair + draw like 89,79, but if he's calling w/ a hand like A3s then he's certainly calling all his T's. If you think you can fold out all one pair hands w/o a draw then stuff it in there, based on your read.

A lot of times players like this like to be the ones doing the betting, and will be much more likely to triple barrel air balls for their stack as opposed to hero calling/bluff catching with marginal one pair hands.

I don't like your sizing on the flop either. You bet much less than 1/2 pot. You just 4 bet pre and now get a T high board. If you really had a monster would you not bet more? I think this needs to be a 2/3 -3/4 pot bet. Make it difficult for him to call w/ anything at this point.

If Ax is way ahead of his 3 bet range, and he always 5 bet shoves his premiums, I don't understand why we should be folding pre fwiw.

This hand is a perfect example of clicking buttons and backwards reasoning.

i think the villain has put in too much money to fold now. He put in what, like 40% of his stack already. not a lot of fe. check it back on turn and hope to get to showdown cheaply.

This....


Sloppy play - especially deep. 4betting A8 this deep is horrid even if you are ahead.

Fold pre.

Grunch

So much Spew.
You just leveled yourself into vomitting chips w/ a subpar strategy vs someone who is destroyed by a simpler approach. Whether or not this worked, the thought process behund this hand is atrocious. I will expand more later tonight.

wowzers. i actually thought everything was decent (was FPS for sure tho) until the shove on the turn. you actually pick up legitimate showdown value and turn that into a bluff.

Lots of people said fold pre. I said your strategy was awful So I will reconcile why I said what I said and many people here said fold pre (which is not my main thesis). I don't think pre is a fold, but its almost assuredly a limp; especially with this guy in the blinds.

1) Your villain is a maniac who comes to gamble and is going to give away his money. Lots of money. He is not here to fold big hands (which to him include TP). In general the way to beat a maniac is to VALUE BET THE EVER-LOVING S--T OUT OF HIM. So for raised pots, you want to play strong hands (pp, big Aces), and for other hands you want to find a way to get in cheap for him with speculative hands that can hit hard. And then when we hit our big hand (overpair+), we value bet the ever-loving **** out of our never-folding maniac friend.
2) I will ask Professor Flat Tire Suited for a grade on the strategy of: beating a maniac 250BB deep by bluffing. Professor what do you think?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-easy-1021276/
I'm pretty sure that's a clear grade of F

3) Onto Fold Pre.

Your hand is A8o. Thats a pretty mediocre hand at best. However, we have the button plus some meh limpers. On top of which, the villain is in a blind, and he likes blind 3bets the way Sandusky likes 12year olds. This seems like the perfect spot to limp the button. With a limp, your villain may not raise the blinds, and if he does we will have a chance at a nice, cheap flop where we can hit 2pair and crush the donkey (including our limpers).

But instead, we clicked the raise button. What to do now?
Bad news: we just lost our very cheap chance to win a big pot by the action.
Worse news: on an absolute basis, A8o sucks fat donkey balls. And for fun, we decide to 4ball...
If we're going to blatantly 4ball bluff here, the sizing needs to FORCE a fold. By making it 305, your villain now has immediate odds of 2.8:1 to call. Not to mention the implied odds of your stack. So if you're going to take this line, the appropriate betsize is at least 600ish. I don't bless it, but at least it is a raise amount that would apply real pressure (assuming our maniac can fold. This is already an f-rated plan)

Our other choices for a 3bet: we could call. If A8o weren't so ****ty postflop this wouldn't be a bad option. I wouldn't mind playing 68s here otb, or playing a hand like AQo or 33. I would def flat 68 and 33; AQo (or 99 even) is good enough to consider a 4ball, however as mentioned earlier big needs to be much bigger.
Unfortunately, A8o is a **** hand. If we absolutely must go to war in a 3bet pot vs a maniac, we should call and try to keep this whole thing in control (against complete maniacs, I can bless a pot-controled A-high calldown.) What we don't want is a situation with middle pair or A-high where our entire stack of 200+bb is in play. While OK, maybe you want that situation, guys who bluff for 150 are less likely to be bluffing when 1500 hits the middle, and there has to be a better plan than waiting to call a 3bet w/ A8o so we can call down with MP or A high for our villains stack.

That leaves us with the unloved option of: fold pre. A fold which could've been avoided had you simply limped.

Based on your numbers, the effective stack left is 685 on the turn. He only needs 25% equity to call your 685 AI for a total pot of 2,710. He is unlikely to fold most of the hands you put him on (Tx, JJ, 99, 88, 78).

By the way, is it true that most live 2/5 & 5/5 players still don't bother with basic math such as pot odds/equity & SPR just like most of the posters in this LLNL forum don't seem to include math in their analysis?