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Old 12-20-2018, 11:15 AM   #1
Pensfan
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Line check at 1/3 in BB

I haven't played much the back half of this year and decided to play some last night as I watched some games and I'm thinking I know what I could have done differently, but want some opinions.

I have $400 and villain has me covered.

I'm in BB with 22 and there are 5 callers to me on a table that had otherwise been fairly aggressive preflop, not sure a hand in the last half hour wasn't raised preflop and that is important info for how this hand plays out, I think.

I've been having a rough session and don't think a raise will get anyone off whatever holding they have so I just check my option, is that a mistake?


Flop comes 2Q8

I check and MP bets $15, one caller and I check raise to $35. This was a sizing mistake for sure, but was the check-raise a mistake? I don't want to give villain his price if he is on a flush draw which I expect him to be given there was no prelop raise.

Villain 4-bets me to $85. At this point my options were to shove or fold, right? Calling or raising here commits the stacks either now or on the turn so take advantage of whatever fold equity I might have and just shove it here?

Rest will be in spoiler:

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Thanks
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Old 12-20-2018, 11:26 AM   #2
Zlunky
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

You should give some more info. Is this fullring or 6handed, do you have any reads on villains? With that said I would shove. Likely he is on a draw or he has a week queen. I wouldn't wanna give him a cheap option to see the turn and hit the flush.
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Old 12-20-2018, 11:36 AM   #3
mikko
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

Stop looking for Hero folds. Set over set 133BB deep is game over.

Preflop is good.

Flop raise is awful sizing. Begging him to peel with all his draws. Puts your hand face up as made hand not a draw or bluff.

Also flop is just 4 bet gii. Sucks your beat a lot though.
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:24 PM   #4
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

Pre i would definitely not raise 22 here. If you do raise you will for sure get a few callers because most people dont limp to fold to a raise. They have a hand they wanna see a flop with. And 22 are only good when you flop a set, otherwise you x/f allmost every flop oop multiway.

I like the flop x/r but it is way too small. I would make it 65-75. Otf beeing only 133bb deep no other option then to gii. If he has 88 just a cooler and nothing you can do. Unless I know villain for a long time and know he is a super passive nit...i might find a fold.

He could also go crazy with like A8, sd+fd, top 2. In this case if you just call otf you give him the option to check back ott and to see a free river.
Whats your reasoning for just calling otf and for your sizing?
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Old 12-20-2018, 02:32 PM   #5
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

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Calling or raising here commits the stacks either now or on the turn so take advantage of whatever fold equity I might have and just shove it here?
Against 88 you dont have FE. All other hands he is willing to gii you never ever want him to fold. You are a huge favorite against a range of pair+fd, top 2 and sd+fd.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:09 PM   #6
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

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Whats your reasoning for just calling otf and for your sizing?
I don't have a good reason for the flop call. In all honesty it's because I was leaning towards a fold but just didn't want to. I went through the reasoning above in my head and felt like the only hand that made sense was 88.

I knew if I was calling that $50 more that my stack was going in so it's just a misstep plain and simple. I have no good excuse. I can't call there and fold to a non-spade turn card, which I didn't.

I know that calling is the worst possible of all options there. Bad decisions happen. The only good news is unless I find a fold the result was going to play itself out no matter what I did. Finding the fold is not being results oriented, 88 is the only hand that plays that way from this villain. He's not 4-betting a flush draw. He's calling my pitiful attempt at a check raise all day with a flush draw, but not 4-betting.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:11 PM   #7
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

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Against 88 you dont have FE. All other hands he is willing to gii you never ever want him to fold. You are a huge favorite against a range of pair+fd, top 2 and sd+fd.
You make another good point here. Looking back, I butchered this hand plain and simple.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:43 AM   #8
22dueces22
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

Pre is fine.

Flop idea is fine being OOP with this flop texture, but execution is poor. As someone mentioned you’re not charging him enough. If we want to C/R let’s make it at least 65-70$, prob more since there is a caller in between.

V having 88 is just cooler. Maybe if turn was 9/T/J of spades, we could maybeeeeee find a fold. But set over set is just one of those things that you rarely get away from.

I remember someone saying once somethe like this: “if you flop a set and lose, it’s most likely to be a big pot. If not, you probably played it wrong”
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Old 12-21-2018, 08:20 AM   #9
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

88 isn't a constant raise at the lower limits. This is the type of hand you sort of have to lose I guess. I lead out large on the flop myself. Then again, I'm not balanced and a confirmed 1/2 monkey.
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:29 PM   #10
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

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Originally Posted by 22dueces22 View Post
Pre is fine.

Flop idea is fine being OOP with this flop texture, but execution is poor. As someone mentioned you’re not charging him enough. If we want to C/R let’s make it at least 65-70$, prob more since there is a caller in between.

V having 88 is just cooler. Maybe if turn was 9/T/J of spades, we could maybeeeeee find a fold. But set over set is just one of those things that you rarely get away from.

I remember someone saying once somethe like this: “if you flop a set and lose, it’s most likely to be a big pot. If not, you probably played it wrong”
Doyle Brunson said that and who am I to question him. I think this is one of the few times I could have channelled my inner Daniel Negraneu and found the hero fold.

As I went through my progression of hands he could have AA/KK/QQ would have 100% been a raise preflop, JJ/TT/99 would at this point be afraid of the Q on board, Q2, Q8 and 28 are just so unlikely, worth considering, but unlikely. That only leaves the spade draw or 88. It isn't AQ of spades because the Q is a spade. That leaves the only likely flush draws at A8 and K8, I guess some other random flush draws, but I don't think this villain plays them like he did.

The only real hand he has is 88 here and he plays it like he did because he's the one afraid of the flush draw.


I know I'm not always getting away from set over set and it's just going to happen, but this is one of those times I think I could have, maybe even should have.
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:45 PM   #11
krilleater
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

I agree that it's hard for V to have a worse hand with the flop 4-bet, but your ridiculously small 3-bet makes it possible he'd do this with top 2.

So it's just a cooler.
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Old 12-22-2018, 09:02 PM   #12
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

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Originally Posted by krilleater View Post
I agree that it's hard for V to have a worse hand with the flop 4-bet, but your ridiculously small 3-bet makes it possible he'd do this with top 2.

So it's just a cooler.
Doesn’t really make a difference, I agree with your thoughts about the tiny raise, but the flop wasn’t 4-bet...it went 15 by V —> hero to 35 —> V to 85 —> hero calls.

3-bets at LLSNL on the flop are nutty enough. 4-bets at LLSNL are the tip tippy tipppppyyyy top of ranges.
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:36 AM   #13
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

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Doesn’t really make a difference, I agree with your thoughts about the tiny raise, but the flop wasn’t 4-bet...it went 15 by V —> hero to 35 —> V to 85 —> hero calls.

3-bets at LLSNL on the flop are nutty enough. 4-bets at LLSNL are the tip tippy tipppppyyyy top of ranges.
Ah, good catch.

Ironically, I think it would've been easier to get away from this with a normal x/r sizing.
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:48 AM   #14
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

I’d prefer to bet this flop like $20. Then if you get raised you can 3!. If V 4!! Jams you can probably fold. If not leading out, c/r to $65 at least, jam non-spade turns. The caller in between likely has a spade draw.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 12-24-2018 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 12-24-2018, 06:26 PM   #15
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Re: Line check at 1/3 in BB

easier to fold on the flop if you x/r bigger; I think if you size up your re-raise and then he still 4 bets you , then you can consider the hero fold

but I think he may see your small raise as weakness sometimes so I would just jam flop in this situation
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