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Old 12-12-2017, 02:53 PM   #276
Amanaplan
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Big pots, and making sure we play them correctly, is pretty much the only thing that matters in NL, imo. If we get in our stack bad, it renders every good thing we've done up to that point absolutely moot...
You are one of millions of ‘winning’ LLSNL players who are hardwired to identify lockdown equity as a prerequisite for stacking off. However, you are missing out on a whole world of value dodging variance in many spots where you cannot easily identify that lockdown equity, often avoiding getting there in the first place.
Many many many players are incapable of even identifying small edges, others are simply too uncomfortable to elicit those spots in the first place. This point is where a player caps himself whether because of aptitude or anxiety or both.
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:12 PM   #277
rawdawg_7
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

No doubt it's easier to get stacks in, in a raised pot. We do however lose money/value against hands that would possibly limp but will not call a raise preflop, that would pay two or three streets had they seen the flop, when we flop a set.

We've all seen the LSNL player that likes to limp most hands that are suited. This is just an example. A lot will limp with any two cards but not call a raise. There are spots where we win less by opening vs limping.

A couple examples of what I'm saying, you are in the pot with 99 and the flop is K93 vs someone that holds something like K3s. We usually can get 3 streets of value or stacks in against this villian. We can get two streets when we flop a set vs the same hand on a flop with two spades, when they don't hit their flush. Have you tried pricing out a flush draw in LSNL? Not happening.

In my opinion, the most money at this level is won by hands that go to showdown instead of winning the most pots with aggression. I win my money by entering the pot with a stronger range and getting value in spots that my opponents doesn't.

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Old 12-12-2017, 07:03 PM   #278
gobbledygeek
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
You are one of millions of ‘winning’ LLSNL players who are hardwired to identify lockdown equity as a prerequisite for stacking off. However, you are missing out on a whole world of value dodging variance in many spots where you cannot easily identify that lockdown equity, often avoiding getting there in the first place.
Many many many players are incapable of even identifying small edges, others are simply too uncomfortable to elicit those spots in the first place. This point is where a player caps himself whether because of aptitude or anxiety or both.
A lot of this depends on what you think of your postflop skillz, especially relative to your opponents.

If you think you're Phil Ivey (or whoever) compared to all your opponents postflop, then you'll probably welcome these difficult spots where stacks easily come into play ASAP with mediocre hands.

If you don't think you're actually *all* that much better than your opponents postflop (which, unless you are at retard filled tables, is probably closer to the actual truth of the matter than some of us would like to admit), or if you genuinely find these spots where stacks are being played for ASAP with mediocre hands difficult, then you probably won't welcome these spots as much.

Gdowhatputsyouinyourwheelhouse,imoG
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:21 PM   #279
sai1b0ats
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
A lot of this depends on what you think of your postflop skillz, especially relative to your opponents.

If you think you're Phil Ivey (or whoever) compared to all your opponents postflop, then you'll probably welcome these difficult spots where stacks easily come into play ASAP with mediocre hands.

If you don't think you're actually *all* that much better than your opponents postflop (which, unless you are at retard filled tables, is probably closer to the actual truth of the matter than some of us would like to admit), or if you genuinely find these spots where stacks are being played for ASAP with mediocre hands difficult, then you probably won't welcome these spots as much.

Gdowhatputsyouinyourwheelhouse,imoG
we're so much better than our opponents postflop it's embarrassing...

- they overvalue top pair and overpair hands
- they don't understand the humongous difference between 1 card vs 2 cards for the nutz
- they think you're making a move if you raise 3 out of 4 hands
- they have no idea what boards are good for cbet bluffs
- they undervalue position
- they chase non-nutted draws like it's their job
- they think you're picking on their big blind (or small blind or button)
- they think you can soul read them
- some of them are tell-boxes
- they are variance fish
- they believe in lucky streaks, hot seats, and favorite hands
- they don't keep track of the pot size
- they don't know how to calculate pot odds
- they wouldn't know what to do with pot odds info
- they raise 6x pre and wonder why they only won 4 bux with their rockets
- they play fit/fold
- they don't know what floating means
- they don't know what a scare card is
- they often click buttons, especially on the river
- many of them never ever ever bluff
- they don't know how to range
- they put you on a hand
- they show their cards

that's off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm missing plenty
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:46 AM   #280
Avaritia
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

If 2500 hours of poker has taught me anything its that hot seats are a very real thing
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:09 AM   #281
MikeStarr
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
we're so much better than our opponents postflop it's embarrassing...

- they overvalue top pair and overpair hands
- they don't understand the humongous difference between 1 card vs 2 cards for the nutz
- they think you're making a move if you raise 3 out of 4 hands
- they have no idea what boards are good for cbet bluffs
- they undervalue position
- they chase non-nutted draws like it's their job
- they think you're picking on their big blind (or small blind or button)
- they think you can soul read them
- some of them are tell-boxes

- they are variance fish
- they believe in lucky streaks, hot seats, and favorite hands
- they don't keep track of the pot size
- they don't know how to calculate pot odds
- they wouldn't know what to do with pot odds info
- they raise 6x pre and wonder why they only won 4 bux with their rockets
- they play fit/fold
- they don't know what floating means
- they don't know what a scare card is
- they often click buttons, especially on the river
- many of them never ever ever bluff
- they don't know how to range
- they put you on a hand
- they show their cards

that's off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm missing plenty
I actually CAN soul read the ones who are tell boxes.
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:30 PM   #282
gobbledygeek
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

Quote:
Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
we're so much better than our opponents postflop it's embarrassing...

- they overvalue top pair and overpair hands
- they don't understand the humongous difference between 1 card vs 2 cards for the nutz
- they think you're making a move if you raise 3 out of 4 hands
- they have no idea what boards are good for cbet bluffs
- they undervalue position
- they chase non-nutted draws like it's their job
- they think you're picking on their big blind (or small blind or button)
- they think you can soul read them
- some of them are tell-boxes
- they are variance fish
- they believe in lucky streaks, hot seats, and favorite hands
- they don't keep track of the pot size
- they don't know how to calculate pot odds
- they wouldn't know what to do with pot odds info
- they raise 6x pre and wonder why they only won 4 bux with their rockets
- they play fit/fold
- they don't know what floating means
- they don't know what a scare card is
- they often click buttons, especially on the river
- many of them never ever ever bluff
- they don't know how to range
- they put you on a hand
- they show their cards

that's off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm missing plenty
If that's who make up 99% of your opponents and you're the 1% otherwise, congratulations to you, imo.

ETA: After reading thru more of the list, it's unbelievable how condescending it is to the majority of opponents at a typical table I would play at. Of course I'll still find opponents and sometimes tables where some of these properties still apply, but to make it out like this is the norm is ridiculous. It sounds like your experience differs night and day from mine.

Gnotanaccuratereflectionofthecurrentpokerlandscape ,atleastinmyexperience,butyoursmaydifferG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 12-13-2017 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:11 PM   #283
sai1b0ats
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

I take issue with the word "condescending". Nowhere in that list do I say our opponents are stupid or whatever. They have lives, jobs, priorities, etc, and play poker for fun or as a serious hobby. You are grossly overestimating their poker skill level. It's not condescending to recognize that our opponent doesn't understand pot odds if our opponent doesn't understand pot odds.

I've played 1-3/1-2 in over 30 casinos in at least 8 US states. (that's not a brag, obv) Most villains in most venues fall short on many of the items on that list.

Try asking a decent Villain for a hand history and appreciate what it means when they can't recall the details very well. While we can easily recall all aspects of a hand, they will typically struggle with who was in position, how many saw the turn, what the bet sizes were, did a back door flush draw hit the turn, etc. They'll say the river was a blank, you'll ask what was the river, and say to yourself when they respond, well, that's not exactly a blank.

Or maybe I'm wrong and our opponents are poker savants.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:17 PM   #284
Avaritia
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by sai1b0ats View Post
I've played 1-3/1-2 in over 30 casinos in at least 8 US states.
How many hours tho
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:29 PM   #285
sai1b0ats
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
How many hours tho
more than 2 Ava's. Which I believe is the standard unit of measure.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:46 PM   #286
gobbledygeek
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

There's a vast difference between being a poker savant and a clueless idiot (which most of the items on that list lean to).

Gourexperiencesdiffer,imoG
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:48 PM   #287
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

Talk about embarrassing... it's 41 rooms in 11 states. Doesn't include home games, underground games or charity rooms (not a ton of those anyway, lol)
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:56 PM   #288
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
There's a vast difference between being a poker savant and a clueless idiot (which most of the items on that list lean to).

Gourexperiencesdiffer,imoG
You are just wrong, I don't know how else to put it. It has nothing to do with experiences. Ask somebody in your pool to discuss a HH from a prior session and see what happens.

Or take a look at the hand you posted in chat some months ago where you claimed that you were bluffing the river. How are you able to understand or evaluate your opponents shortcomings when you think that bet was a bluff?
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:59 PM   #289
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

Brilliant people who are rec players can fail at a number of those items. Calling them clueless idiots is very wrong.
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:13 PM   #290
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

I'm not applying the "condescending" / "clueless idiots" / etc. comments to their real-life personal traits (why would that even matter?): it's simply in reference to their poker traits.

They don't know what a scare card is?

They don't keep track of pot size?

They don't what floating means?

Many of them never ever bluff?

Etc.?

Seriously?

Like I always do, I'll simply leave it up to the OP/reader. If these are the majority of opponents in your game, then great, and play appropriately. If not, then this thinking (i.e. I'm a postflop wizard compared to the majority of my opponents) isn't going to work out nearly as well as you think it is.

ETA: FWIW, I have been guilty of grouping a lot of my opponents into this single "clueless idiot" basket in the past, although I believe at the time I was mostly correct in this assessment. But things have changed, and I believe at the majority of tables I sit at now there are typically only a couple of players who fit into that category (some having more of those traits you listed above than others).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 12-13-2017 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:56 AM   #291
tdammon
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

Great post! I haven't read every comment so maybe this has been asked. Some of the games I play in have 1 or 2 players who limp their entire range. It makes it very difficult for me to raise multiple limpers since players will show up with AK, AQ, QQ, and even AA, KK.

How does a game dynamic like this alter my limping vs. raising range. It seems like my middling pairs 77- TT should now be limped to avoid getting crushed by these limpers.
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:09 AM   #292
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by tdammon View Post
Great post! I haven't read every comment so maybe this has been asked. Some of the games I play in have 1 or 2 players who limp their entire range. It makes it very difficult for me to raise multiple limpers since players will show up with AK, AQ, QQ, and even AA, KK.

How does a game dynamic like this alter my limping vs. raising range. It seems like my middling pairs 77- TT should now be limped to avoid getting crushed by these limpers.
question the first: what is a limping range
qt2: what pct of that limping range is composed of aq+qq+

the answer is probably
Spoiler:
and you should react accordingly (that is
Spoiler:
)
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Old 12-14-2017, 11:56 AM   #293
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

DK, are you saying that AQ+/QQ+ makes up such a small percentage of a limpers range that we shouldn't adjust our raising range? (It's possible I'm misreading your post)

If 4 or 5 people limp and are all capable of having big hands in their mix, there's a pretty decent chance one of them has a big hand. I think it's pretty clear we should be toning down our raising range in these situations, no? One of the best ways to punish me (a guy who is limping in with big hands in EP) is to not raise for me; thankfully this typically isn't a problem for me at tables where lots of people in LP think "limping is stupid".

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:10 PM   #294
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

ye exactly

i'll respomd properly tomorrow when i've got less whisky in my system

but you're talking about overlimp hands and the range ofr that is exactly aq/ak exatly y% of the time

so just r/f it
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:17 PM   #295
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

Raise/folding hands that can crack people limping with big hands sucks, imo.

Goverlimp/crack,imoG
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:22 PM   #296
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Raise/folding hands that can crack people limping with big hands sucks, imo.

Goverlimp/crack,imoG
oh ye low pairs sure

but mid pairs naw

how offen you think people fold to 3bees

it's gotta be sometimes because if it was never you wouldn't complain about never getten paid with your aces

and you know you never getting fourbee light and sometimes you sad because you gotta fold your pp and you coulda setmined but really you're only gonna spike less thanna eifth o the time so whassa harm
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