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Old 12-06-2017, 01:34 AM   #226
ChrisV
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
It's going to be rare that pots are going to be checked down multiway plus we fade all the outs if we happen to be ahead on the flop.

You're not going to play 99 differently on a 864hh flop in an SPR 3 pot than you would an SPR 20 pot?

Overall, I don't think anyone is questioning whether "you'll be making money" if you raise here. The question is whether you'll win more by limping, and BGP has provided some fairly good guesses as to why it might be more EV to overlimp (especially regarding sometimes being up against much stronger ranges than you think preflop and facing 3bets being a disaster). On top of that I would add that playing big bloated small SPR pots multiway with middling hands is extremely tough (our first decision is often a commitment one), and these decisions are pretty easy to get wrong (and these big mistakes are extremely costly and basically the only things worth worrying about in poker as they make every good thing we've done up to that point rather moot if we get in our stack bad, and likewise folding the best hand in a huge pot is just as bad).

GstillthinksthatBGPisnotmyalternateaccount,althoug hnowI'mnotasconvincedG
Of course it's rare to have a pot checked down and win it. To break even on a preflop raise if it's 6 ways, I need to win 1 in 6 times. I'm going to flop a set 1 in 8.5 times, that accounts for a lot of the winning. The difference between 1/6 and 1/8.5 is less than 5%. So I'm aiming to win unimproved somewhere around 5-10% of hands, probably. 99 flops an overpair ~17% of the time and has about 16% equity on flops like Q72r. So I don't think winning 5-10% unimproved is hard at all, especially since (in my game anyway) people check to the raiser like 90% of the time and usually have a crushing hand if they lead.

You base your entire game around not making mistakes in big pots, but you're only filling out one side of the ledger. Opponent mistakes are also exacerbated in large pots. When opponents check call the flop without odds to do so, which they do constantly, those mistakes are a lot worse in raised pots.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:35 AM   #227
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Its so stupid i dismissed it out of hand. I feel like responding makes us all dumber, and honestly this whole crappy thread is filled with cancer ideas and poorly understood concepts, and will only make anyone reading it confused and worse at poker.

to get straight to the point There is literally a term for when you cant realize your full equity due to action on later streets, its called reverse implied odds.

but just for fun, why dont you go ahead and flip AA face up and still realize your equity. You already admitted its not true OOP, because you know its a load of BS.

Also, if your equity statement is correct, then the GTO bots that play against themselves like pokersnowie would get exactly their preflop equity out of their hands which is of course nonsense.
Fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't really know enough about it. I'll retract the general claim but I still don't think that 99 in position represents a hand that is hard to realize equity with. It's the exact opposite of a hand with RIO problems and it's frequently obvious when it's beaten. I think AA is harder to play postflop 6 ways, frankly.

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As far as the big takeaways from this thread imo:

As players to the flop increases, the importance of your preflop equity decreases and the importance of having a hand which will want to go all in on a lot of boards increases. (anyone who has had aces oop to lots of deep players will know this)

This means that you should be raising hands which rate to dominate villains hands often POSTFLOP such as big pairs, AK, AQ, KQs etc.

Due to having more players in the pot, the value of position is decreased and the importance of being able to hit lots of flops hard increases.

Also due to having more players in the pot, having weak or medium showdown value becomes far less important as you are less likely to actualize this equity. Due to this, often medium strength hands turn into speculative hands in multiway pots.

The easier it is to get stacks in postflop means you should be less inclined to raise with speculative hands which only want to get all in on very few flops.

Furthermore by raising you reopen the action which could mean someone behind you with a premium could 3bet you out of the pot, or they could bluff you. This is a disaster when you have a hand that could cooler someone postflop.


It is fine to get "outplayed" and lose some pots where you might have had the best hand if you are winning far more money when you flop a big hand due to villain's overaggression. (this is a different way of outplaying your opponent. Instead of winning the most pots you're winning the most money.)

Your results with a particular hand should be calculated over the long term and not the short term.

Due to the big disparity in LLSNL games around the world it is fine to play hands very differently in similar situations due to drastically different table conditions. You should not confine yourself to rigid rules.
Have bolded the parts of this I can unconditionally agree with
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:53 AM   #228
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't really know enough about it. I'll retract the general claim but I still don't think that 99 in position represents a hand that is hard to realize equity with. It's the exact opposite of a hand with RIO problems and it's frequently obvious when it's beaten. I think AA is harder to play postflop 6 ways, frankly.
Im not going down this rabbit hole, but ill just say, 99 should be raised not limped, just like 66 and 22 and 57s, because limping is stupid, and 99 isnt super hard to play in either limped or raised pots, but itll make more money.

I also think its concerning you value preflop equity so highly though, because there is a reason hands like 54s play better than k9o in 100+ BB poker which you should know after tens of thousands of posts, so i hope your PF range isnt based on PF equity because thats a massive leak.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:28 AM   #229
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

I don't value preflop equity highly. I value being in raised pots with good hands. The preflop equity thing was because one of the things people say in support of limping is "I lose less when I don't flop a set". I was pointing out that that makes no sense when you have an equity advantage preflop. I didn't expect that to devolve into a discussion of whether or not the whole concept of equity on a street is witchcraft
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:47 PM   #230
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer View Post
As far as the big takeaways from this thread imo:



As players to the flop increases, the importance of your preflop equity decreases and the importance of having a hand which will want to go all in on a lot of boards increases. (anyone who has had aces oop to lots of deep players will know this)



This means that you should be raising hands which rate to dominate villains hands often POSTFLOP such as big pairs, AK, AQ, KQs etc.







Due to having more players in the pot, the value of position is decreased and the importance of being able to hit lots of flops hard increases.



Also due to having more players in the pot, having weak or medium showdown value becomes far less important as you are less likely to actualize this equity. Due to this, often medium strength hands turn into speculative hands in multiway pots.





The easier it is to get stacks in postflop means you should be less inclined to raise with speculative hands which only want to get all in on very few flops.



Furthermore by raising you reopen the action which could mean someone behind you with a premium could 3bet you out of the pot, or they could bluff you. This is a disaster when you have a hand that could cooler someone postflop.









It is fine to get "outplayed" and lose some pots where you might have had the best hand if you are winning far more money when you flop a big hand due to villain's overaggression. (this is a different way of outplaying your opponent. Instead of winning the most pots you're winning the most money.)



Your results with a particular hand should be calculated over the long term and not the short term.



Due to the big disparity in LLSNL games around the world it is fine to play hands very differently in similar situations due to drastically different table conditions. You should not confine yourself to rigid rules.


Quite well summarized, thank you.

Can we go so far as to say the “skill” in these situations will revolve around limping a few mixed combo’s that would be folded or reraised in any more straight forward scenario among more balanced players?

Must be some lower suited connectors and the pocket pairs that involve these, imo.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:17 PM   #231
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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because limping is stupid
Not exactly a convincing argument.

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Old 12-06-2017, 03:49 PM   #232
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

I'm not sure how this thread got so polarizing. In a ridiculously loose/stationy game where being a "supreme donkey crusher" is a gold mine, it should be obvious that limping lots of speculative hands is correct. Similarly, in a game full of solid online grinders, it should be obvious that limping lots of speculative hands is incorrect. Most of our tables nowadays are somewhere in the middle. It's much more important to understand why you're raising/limping/folding these hands & to be able to adjust properly than to try to classify limping as good or bad.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:08 PM   #233
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
I'm not sure how this thread got so polarizing. In a ridiculously loose/stationy game where being a "supreme donkey crusher" is a gold mine, it should be obvious that limping lots of speculative hands is correct. Similarly, in a game full of solid online grinders, it should be obvious that limping lots of speculative hands is incorrect. Most of our tables nowadays are somewhere in the middle. It's much more important to understand why you're raising/limping/folding these hands & to be able to adjust properly than to try to classify limping as good or bad.
Solid.

I just have to add that 99 cannot be treated as a purely speculative limping hand (even against high frequency calling stations) because there are just too many beneficial preflop (and subsequent postflop*) outcomes that arise from raising it which are lost when limping. Practically, they do not “always call” facing a raise. As Tomark added, size up - Perhaps you win the blinds or wind up HU/3 ways to a flop which is actually what BGP prefers for 99.

*Even if they all call (and you didn’t get HU) you have likely secured position and initiative post bc of your raise pre. For those upthread that patted themselves on the back wrt to initiative having little impact, you ought to consider how much value you receive from being able to setmine turns for your preflop investment by way of having been the PF aggressor/frequently checked to as a result. That isn’t some negligible factor and turning sets and straights and straight draws is a pretty big value component to the hand itself.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:05 PM   #234
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
Quite well summarized, thank you.

Can we go so far as to say the “skill” in these situations will revolve around limping a few mixed combo’s that would be folded or reraised in any more straight forward scenario among more balanced players?

Must be some lower suited connectors and the pocket pairs that involve these, imo.
Usually the skill involved in these scenarios is valuebetting the hell out of donks.


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I'm not sure how this thread got so polarizing. In a ridiculously loose/stationy game where being a "supreme donkey crusher" is a gold mine, it should be obvious that limping lots of speculative hands is correct. Similarly, in a game full of solid online grinders, it should be obvious that limping lots of speculative hands is incorrect. Most of our tables nowadays are somewhere in the middle. It's much more important to understand why you're raising/limping/folding these hands & to be able to adjust properly than to try to classify limping as good or bad.
Well said


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Solid.

I just have to add that 99 cannot be treated as a purely speculative limping hand (even against high frequency calling stations) because there are just too many beneficial preflop (and subsequent postflop*) outcomes that arise from raising it which are lost when limping. Practically, they do not “always call” facing a raise. As Tomark added, size up - Perhaps you win the blinds or wind up HU/3 ways to a flop which is actually what BGP prefers for 99.
Given the scenario we were working with, a 5 bb raise, I would expect everyone to call more often than not. If you wanted to get this down to HU, 3 way or even win the blinds (indeed very good scenarios as now the pair value of 9s when we don't hit a set goes waaaaay up) then we would need to make our raise much larger. This would open up some other very bad consequences for this exact holding though.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:44 PM   #235
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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This would open up some other very bad consequences for this exact holding though.
Like what? Getting 3bet out of the blinds which you can very confidently muck the worst of it to?

The only way we get punished is if the blinds vpip by 3betting a good linear range - yeah, isn't going to happen

Last edited by Eholeing; 12-06-2017 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:47 PM   #236
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

Yes, that would be a bad outcome.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:55 PM   #237
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

So is opening Kk and getting 3bet by Aa
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:06 PM   #238
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Like what? Getting 3bet out of the blinds which you can very confidently muck the worst of it to?

The only way we get punished is if the blinds vpip by 3betting a good linear range - yeah, isn't going to happen
The world of limpers can't 3bet us?

After a lot of limpers in my loose game, it's easily going to require a 10x++ raise to have a chance to narrow the field in my game (I've often opened to 10x+ and gotten more action than I've wanted). If blinds wake up with a hand or limpers are limping a big one to reraise (which is often the case), it's pretty much a disaster having to raise/fold for 10x+ even if it's only "some" of the time.

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Old 12-07-2017, 04:28 PM   #239
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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The world of limpers can't 3bet us?

After a lot of limpers in my loose game, it's easily going to require a 10x++ raise to have a chance to narrow the field in my game (I've often opened to 10x+ and gotten more action than I've wanted). If blinds wake up with a hand or limpers are limping a big one to reraise (which is often the case), it's pretty much a disaster having to raise/fold for 10x+ even if it's only "some" of the time.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Very few hands prefer to face a 3b, but it's a bridge too far to lean on this argument as a justification not to 2b 99. BGP overstepped there...especially in the context of this thread, where it's hypocritical to allow for any frequency of being 3b by limpers when we won't allow for any frequency of limpers folding.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:38 PM   #240
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

I don't see how saying the limpers aren't folding and can possibly 3bet is hypocritical. It's kinda consistent if we're assuming limpers can be limping in with strong hands.

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Old 12-07-2017, 05:04 PM   #241
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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I don't see how saying the limpers aren't folding and can possibly 3bet is hypocritical. It's kinda consistent if we're assuming limpers can be limping in with strong hands.

GcluelesslimpingnoobG
Because if 99 can get folds then it's doing remarkably better as a 2b than a limp.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:30 PM   #242
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Given the scenario we were working with, a 5 bb raise, I would expect everyone to call more often than not. If you wanted to get this down to HU, 3 way or even win the blinds (indeed very good scenarios as now the pair value of 9s when we don't hit a set goes waaaaay up) then we would need to make our raise much larger. This would open up some other very bad consequences for this exact holding though.
Beating a dead horse I suppose, but how can I support an argument that informs me that I cannot find a profitable raise sizing, for a top 3% hand, as a direct result of other players playing their ranges as a limp?

Limp, limp, limp, I cannot profitably raise x because limpers too often call wide.
Limp, limp, limp, I cannot profitably raise y because limpers too often 3b linear.

So then open limping/overlimping from any position with all hands is optimal because any preflop aggressor cannot profitably 2b without TT+ AKs?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:31 PM   #243
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Because if 99 can get folds then it's doing remarkably better as a 2b than a limp.
Course it all depends on how many limpers there are, and how many will fold to the raise, etc.; I'm guessing there is probably some sweet spot (HU?) which is likely the best result? But, again, given that after a world of limpers we're almost getting immediate setmining odds, it's not abundantly obvious to me that getting some folds is remarkably better than almost setmining here. Is getting everyone to fold a good result? If everyone is solid postflop, probably. If anyone in the mix is horrible, it may be a disaster.

GIcan'tbetheonlyonewhothinksthisisn'tremarkablyobv ious?G
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:41 PM   #244
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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So then open limping/overlimping from any position with all hands is optimal because any preflop aggressor cannot profitably 2b without TT+ AKs?
I'll let BGP address the rest of your question since it was directed at him.

But I think the last statement is a really interesting one (apart from the fact we're not really addressing whether it is profitable or not, we're addressing whether it is the most profitable line). I know HOC would answer yes in this case (adding AK, possibly throwing in AQs, and adjusting slightly up/down given limpers). And for years in the games I was playing in I thought this was far too tight. But I've now come around to the thought that in current games this might be more correct in a lotta spots (such as after many limpers) than I originally thought.

Not saying that it's definitely right or definitely wrong. Just saying that there is a possibility that it's fine. I mean, outright dismissing it due to "lol, nit" isn't really a good argument, right?

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:52 PM   #245
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

I think it would help to have everyone offering advice to state their winrate for the year (so we know how heavily to weigh their advice vs. the advice of others).

GG let's start with you - whats your winrate using a heavy limping style in todays game (2017 winrate) ?
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:57 PM   #246
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Course it all depends on how many limpers there are, and how many will fold to the raise, etc.; I'm guessing there is probably some sweet spot (HU?) which is likely the best result? But, again, given that after a world of limpers we're almost getting immediate setmining odds, it's not abundantly obvious to me that getting some folds is remarkably better than almost setmining here. Is getting everyone to fold a good result? If everyone is solid postflop, probably. If anyone in the mix is horrible, it may be a disaster.

GIcan'tbetheonlyonewhothinksthisisn'tremarkablyobv ious?G
It's just a gross misclassification to say 99 is a pure setmining hand before preflop action is complete. 22 otoh is a pure setmining hand (that does not necessarily even need to be included in ranges at all to make them more profitable). It's flop equity distribution is extremely polarized, set or nothing, and as such there is no reason to play it as a raise given it makes more money with 3,4,5,6 perhaps 8 ranges (better chance to make weaker made hands) seeing the flop for as cheaply as possible. (Except in Tomark's case where he refuses to have any limping ranges in which case 22 is viable as a raise/fold pre). 22 also has severe RIO problems with it's straight equity as it only does so on A345/3456 boards, it's flush equity is obviously useless, and its frequency of being oversetted is naturally the highest of all other pps.

99, however, is going to flop overpairs, second pair, less dominated SDs, sets, along with middling flush equity on many flops. It has a smooth (I think this is the term) flop equity distribution that allows for far more playability on flops and late street play as well. As a result, it would like the pot size, heading to the flop, to be a certain size (hard to know exactly how much), but it isn't 6 ways for 6bb. A simple proof is that 22 would love to see a 6 way pot for 6bb which means it's higher raw equity counterpart does not.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:58 PM   #247
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

I post my winrate giraffe every single year (as well as my overall) in the Winrates thread (where it belongs), and I'll do the same in about a month. Like any shortterm results has any bearing whatsoever on the discussion.

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Old 12-07-2017, 06:10 PM   #248
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Originally Posted by niceguy22 View Post
I think it would help to have everyone offering advice to state their winrate for the year (so we know how heavily to weigh their advice vs. the advice of others).

GG let's start with you - whats your winrate using a heavy limping style in todays game (2017 winrate) ?
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:36 PM   #249
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

Regarding 99 being a "setmining" hand, 99 has 14% equity 6 ways against typical limping ranges even if you remove the other two 9s from the deck. Average equity there is 16.7%, so 99 is still almost as good as everyone else's hand even if you ban it from hitting a set.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:47 PM   #250
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Re: Limping preflop at LLSNL

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Regarding 99 being a "setmining" hand, 99 has 14% equity 6 ways against typical limping ranges even if you remove the other two 9s from the deck. Average equity there is 16.7%, so 99 is still almost as good as everyone else's hand even if you ban it from hitting a set.
Who cares? Preflop equity is pretty useless in a spot like this where you're 6 ways and have a lot more money behind, and you have multiple more decisions to make if everyone isnt all in preflop.
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