3/5. Three solid aggressive players in late position had been punishing the limpers. Hero had been mostly raise opening as well, though occasionally limping as well. Passive players on my left - more nitty than fishy. Table was all regs at the Muck.

Hero 440 limps AA UTG
3 calls.
MP ABC reg raises to 35
2 callers
Btn aggressive TAGish reg raises to 135
Fold to Hero
Hero raises to 240 total
Fold btn villain who calls

I was thinking that the table dynamic was ripe for a limp RR. Surprised to see all the calls of 35 but all the more. Sizing I was thinking a min raise still commits me and is most likely to get called.

Flop was J high.
Hero shoves
Villain calls

Hero wins with AA
Villain shows KK. Maybe not as good of a player as I thought.

Thoughts on limp and 4bet sizing?.

Hard to comment on viability when you just coolered someone. Money obv going in whatever.

Bold part is not true, because this hand at less than 100bb is simply a cooler, nothing more.

At your stack size, I am probably not re-raising pre, because $135 is big enough in these games that I don't think the two guys that called $35 are going to call $100 more, but the re-raise might induce a hero fold. Plus I don't mind playing 4 way with SPR < 1 holding AA.

If I were to raise, I think I'll just shove, which looks weaker than min-raising IMO.

Ughhh u gave him a great chance to get away from his hand... This is the only line that gives him a way out of this cooler

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Stopped reading after the title. If the biggest mistake you make is never limp/3-betting AA you're well on your way to crushing most low-stakes games

My thoughts are that you're lucky he had exactly KK because any decent player will see KK+ unless you've shown something else.

If you think he's a good player and calling with kk is bad and unexpected, how do you justify your shove?

True that it's a cooler but the question is whether limp RR is a good line UTG at this table (or ever). I thought this was a case where posting results would be ok, but now I think I shouldn't have included them. I like the idea of not reraising I think.

But I disagree with all in being better than min raise. Llsnl principle is that absolute size matters. 300 is not getting called by KK but 100 might.

Clearly depends on your player.

I am far more inclined to call $300 than $100 min-raise at these stack sizes.

Agreed. I was thinking give him a chance to make a mistake by calling. I thought it likely that he would correctly fold but u never know. Gotta give em a chance to make a mistake. I'm still curious whether u and others think limping AA UTG can b a good play in the conditions I've described. Sorry if that particular question is too mundane. I almost put this in the low stress strat thread for that reason, but I still think it's an interesting question. It's something I am newly experimenting with. I ask myself would I do it in other positions like utg+1, +2? Only if I'm open limping? Only with other limpets in front of me? I tend to think I would do it with limpers in front because people like to punish more limpers more.

I don't mind if I get all folds and take down 250 right now. Do you prefer a call of the 135?

I thought he was a good player. I meant that his preflop call was bad. Not his post flop call. Once he calls pre he clearly has to call post. I raised pre hoping he would make a mistake. I am open to the idea that I should have just called pre. I'll admit that the 3bet pre surprised me, and I hadn't thought through whether to 4bet. I was just planning to 3bet to around 150 or more if the blinds called 35. So maybe I should just call given stack sizes and SPR. See Richard parker's input.

Do u like limping AA UTG here, or ever?

Interesting. Thanks. I suspect u r not alone in that among the better players here. I personally see limp RR as very strong and i would (perhaps wrongly) see 300 here as stronger than 100). I usually see it as KK+ as spikeraw said or even just AA. So I would have folded in villains shoes but that doesn't mean villains will.

I actually had a limp RR hand with aA a week ago and posted it in bbv. Just to say that I'm working on experimenting with limp RR now.

So I'll take that as another vote for just calling pre. Thanks for the response.

No raise pre... I guess raise>>call=>lrr

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If your cold 4bet range is only AA, then his call is bad. If your 5bet call range is only AA, then a raise is bad.

Otherwise, folding pf with KK is generally a mistake.

Game is capped at 4bet pre, and knowing similar dynamic, I would say that 99% of players only 4-bet KK+ in these spots.

I know these dynamics well, and limp/rr is fine in such dynamic.

Had you raised pre, you're more than likely looking at 4 - 5 way flop with SPR around 2 and OOP.

Personally I rather avoid such condition in which I am basically forced to shove blind and hope someone is too station to fold TP. In a table where people are calling 6 - 9bb pre-flop with a wide range and raises take place often, I like limp/rr and don't mind adding 30% to my stack with no risk.

FYI, we are talking about < 100bb effective, not 200bb+.

This. Don't min 4bet ever. U basically put ur hand face up as kk+ or qq+ and if he was really good he may be able to get away from kk here. Either shove if u think he calls or flat.

I think my 4bet cold range is only AA. Probably a leak of mine. My 5bet call range is probably only AA. Probably another leak.

I think I would fold KK to a 4bet and a 5bet. Another leak?

Confirmed that it is capped at three raises (a 4bet pre - since 1bet is not a raise).

Thanks.

the damn limp raise is so bad.

here's the thing. i seriously 100% fold to you with KK

We're not playing you, and others do not fold to limp/rr in these games.

So against u this would be bad. Maybe when I get to 5/T this would be bad, but here? I think the 3/5 at the Muck is bad enough to do this. See my bbv post about a week ago if interested. I've done it very successfully twice now. I agree that it turns my hand face up but it seems to be working.

Against a total nonthinker l/r is ok, but even when I didn't know what i was doing (liek last week) that jumped out to me. IF the issue is that you're afraid of getting more than 2 callers, then you should be raising more initially. That's the solution I've come up with. I'm real snug up front anyway, but I raise everything I'm gonna raise to an amount that si almost certain not to go 53 ways to the flop. If there's an adjustment period, it isn't very long and eventually the table just knows you as that guy who raises huge preflop. Then I'm on my way with a seriously juiced single raised pot with big hands vs. 1-2 players without the trouble of maybe tipping them off. I've played at tables where this raise size was north of $30. Sounds ridiculous, but its happened. Some will argue both ways on the play. I personally don't like it, but I also am open to the possibility of it having perit in the right circumstances.

This is a key point. A lot of people call even if they think you have AA because they love cracking aces. Odds have nothing to do with it. If they understood the odds, of course they would fold. But they don't.

A lot of the limp/rr depends on your game on a table that knows how you play. An aggressive player really can't get away with this in the UTG. You just don't have a limp range pf. This works for a passive player that limps a fair number of hands pf. Harrington has a considerable discussion about this in HOC. He likes limping early with hands. The limp/rr is a defensive tool to prevent people from running over your obviously weak hands. IMO, given the choice of opening up in EP vs. opening in LP, I'd much rather play 75s on the button than play 77 UTG pf all things equal.

TBH, I establish a nit image and open up. I've found it more profitable than having a loose image and tightening up. However, I am cursed with the LLSNL mod curse that prevents me from ever hitting a board. I need folds to make a profit.