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Limp / reraise UTG Limp / reraise UTG

03-11-2016 , 01:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
I like the limp/reraise. Now I would check the flop (obviously call a shove).
OBVIOUSLY???
03-11-2016 , 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
This hand should be right near the top of your 3 bet range and you should be 3betting with it at least a few times per day, not just a few times ever (and I don't mean from under the gun).

If it is getting you into trouble, then the leak is in your post flop play (such as the reason for this thread).

Proper post flop play starts with enough ammo (stacks) to be able to get yourself out of tough situations including good handreading skills (which is why reads are the most important aspect in llsnl so you know what line to take - whether it's for value, bluff or semi bluff, and knowing when to c/f).
How the hell can I 3 bet with KQs a few times per day? I doubt that I even get dealt KQs a few times per day. In the times that I do get dealt it, there would have to be a raise before me for me to 3bet with it. Without doing the math, I seriously doubt its possible to 3bet with KQs a few times per day on average unless Im playing 12 hour sessions.

The deeper you play the better you need to be at post flop play. So, if I get into trouble more often after 3 betting than I do in a standard raised pot, it stands to reason that my post flop play is not one of my bigger leaks. The bigger leak would be 3 betting at the wrong time.
03-11-2016 , 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
How the hell can I 3 bet with KQs a few times per day? I doubt that I even get dealt KQs a few times per day. In the times that I do get dealt it, there would have to be a raise before me for me to 3bet with it. Without doing the math, I seriously doubt its possible to 3bet with KQs a few times per day on average unless Im playing 12 hour sessions.
I was not talking about KQs specifically, I was talking about hands in that range such as KJs, KTs, etc.

I was replying to this post specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Ive 3 bet more than a few times with hands like this though and Ive gotten into much more trouble doing that.
03-11-2016 , 10:50 AM
Gotcha. The problem is that I play during the day with a bunch of OMC so when I 3 bet a hand like this and get called, Im just about always way behind their range.

This particular KQs hand was at a table completely different than that or I wouldve never tried it, but that was a really weird table compared to my normal ones. My point is that I cant 3 bet very often profitably at the tables I play at. Ive been trying it a lot more lately with hands that I dont want to flat with and it hasnt been working.
03-11-2016 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6betfold
OBVIOUSLY???
Yes, obviously we are not gonna fold with these effective stacks. If you check, there's a chance villain thinks he can make you fold queens or whatever. It happens. Even bet/folding would be superior to check/folding imo.
03-11-2016 , 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
Yes, obviously we are not gonna fold with these effective stacks. If you check, there's a chance villain thinks he can make you fold queens or whatever. It happens. Even bet/folding would be superior to check/folding imo.
Thats exactly why I said in the OP that I wasnt folding and why I asked the original question of should I have checked the flop.
03-11-2016 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
Yes, obviously we are not gonna fold with these effective stacks. If you check, there's a chance villain thinks he can make you fold queens or whatever. It happens. Even bet/folding would be superior to check/folding imo.
I think you're not giving much weightage to the fact that Hero just limp/reraised pre which means even an idiotic V should automatically put us on AA/KK. Checking the flop is much more likely to make him think "this guy hit a set and is trapping" rather than "he checked, let me turn my garbage into a bluff." Yes, it's possible but far less likely imo. Let's be realistic. It's really V-dependent but without a specific read about his bluffing tendencies, I'm defaulting to considering a shove as atleast Ax here.

Check/called in this spot several times, and Vs show Ax close to 100% of the time in this spot. Ofcourse, there are droolers who'll rip it in with 76s when you check. You just need to be aware of who they are.

If you're that concerned about V turning his hand into a bluff when you check, I think it's better to just go ahead and make a blocking bet OTF but shut down if called. Expect to lose everytime he calls.
03-11-2016 , 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Thats exactly why I said in the OP that I wasnt folding and why I asked the original question of should I have checked the flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
Yes, obviously we are not gonna fold with these effective stacks. .
...Not when...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
Hes a massive calling station but I didnt expect him to call $125 preflop.
I already added my .02 in #2, but its an awfully simple solution given player archetype.
bet-f>>ck-f>>>>>>ck-c>bet-c

'never folding' has no part in a sound game plan. It does more harm than good as it too quickly brings 'shove now if in not folding' to the forefront of your inner dialogue. Why remove +EV options? because pot SPR~1 and you back raised? Your eq vs massive station continuing range is 15-18% with zero FE. It should be awfully easy, even in game, to construct flop betting and calling ranges for V at different sizes with reasonable frequencies and make sound decisions based on the info you now have.

One other point - when I said linp back-raising KQs is torching cash, what I meant was more that you're likely hurting your EV in a game like this. Open raising a hand you can play profitably in these games > limping and going 7 to a flop OOP. AP a cool spot emerged and I don't mind it given the massive FE, but all in all it's an outlier result... Which I think you're aware of. Choose a weaker hand that should still have equity against a gii range more often than KQs.
03-11-2016 , 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6betfold
I think you're not giving much weightage to the fact that Hero just limp/reraised pre which means even an idiotic V should automatically put us on AA/KK. Checking the flop is much more likely to make him think "this guy hit a set and is trapping" rather than "he checked, let me turn my garbage into a bluff." Yes, it's possible but far less likely imo. Let's be realistic. It's really V-dependent but without a specific read about his bluffing tendencies, I'm defaulting to considering a shove as atleast Ax here.

Check/called in this spot several times, and Vs show Ax close to 100% of the time in this spot. Ofcourse, there are droolers who'll rip it in with 76s when you check. You just need to be aware of who they are.

If you're that concerned about V turning his hand into a bluff when you check, I think it's better to just go ahead and make a blocking bet OTF but shut down if called. Expect to lose everytime he calls.
If he's putting us on AA/KK, he won't put another dime in anyway, right? I have no problem with villain checking behind OTF. Bet/fold 100 on any turn seems fine.
03-11-2016 , 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6betfold
I think you're not giving much weightage to the fact that Hero just limp/reraised pre which means even an idiotic V should automatically put us on AA/KK. Checking the flop is much more likely to make him think "this guy hit a set and is trapping" rather than "he checked, let me turn my garbage into a bluff." Yes, it's possible but far less likely imo. Let's be realistic. It's really V-dependent but without a specific read about his bluffing tendencies, I'm defaulting to considering a shove as atleast Ax here.

Check/called in this spot several times, and Vs show Ax close to 100% of the time in this spot. Ofcourse, there are droolers who'll rip it in with 76s when you check. You just need to be aware of who they are.

If you're that concerned about V turning his hand into a bluff when you check, I think it's better to just go ahead and make a blocking bet OTF but shut down if called. Expect to lose everytime he calls.
So villain is putting me on AA/KK and putting 1/3 of his stack in preflop? I dont think hes good enough to have any clue what I have or what I should have there. He only knows what he has.....which makes me reraising with KQs pretty bad, but I had no idea he was THAT bad when I did it.
03-11-2016 , 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
If he's putting us on AA/KK, he won't put another dime in anyway, right?
Not necessary. He may look us up with worse on the river if we check twice sometimes. Betting earlier, we can't get called by anything worse, and is therefore terrible imo.
03-11-2016 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
So villain is putting me on AA/KK and putting 1/3 of his stack in preflop?
Read: fish.

For all you know, he may be putting you on AK too and calling with his pp praying for non AK boards. See it all the time.

That board is basically the worst one for him to bluff at. I just don't buy it.
03-12-2016 , 08:30 AM
I don't like the pre-flop play. But assuming that happens, open shoving the flop seems pretty clearly the worst play available.

And the A vs. K blocker thing is because people play more A's than they do K's. I usually think of it more when it comes to 4-betting pre , but same concept I guess (and not much 3betting and 4betting in 2/5 live). People raise more with AX than KX. People 3bet more with AX than with KX. Therefore, they have more weak AX in a raise/folding range and not so much KX. So the AX blocks AA and AK, but also blocks all those hands they would fold. KX blocks KK and AK and not so many hands they would fold.
03-12-2016 , 01:03 PM
TTHRIC.

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