Thanks for this. Getting low SPR seems like the main function of sizing then. I like it.

I thought he was talking about limp-RR pots.

Can someone tell me if it's a leak to never limp rr?

I've been in situations where I would have gone for a l/rr in EP with AA (maybe KK) but didn't get dealt it. So in ~ 800 hours of live play, I haven't done it yet. I think it has merits and probably more merits if you're playing on or under 100bb rather than considerably over.

Well, if you don’t do it then you never get to say ‘haha got em’ in your head as they fold when you have them crushed. Also, you never get the chance to play 3 more streets oop completely face up. Spr tho. You also don’t get to sink inside when they get to see a board w 87o for a single bb. It’s amazing how much actually has to go right just to have the opportunity to misplay your hand.

In most every game I have played, when I see an open limp, all I think is ‘spot’.

Every NL game that is, other poker forms it’s often part of a sound strat.

Well, don't be too distracted by the lowering the SPR (it's part of the story but not the whole story); the key point to be focused on is what IO we're offering (especially if we lower the SPR to one where we won't be able to fold postflop).

For example, we limp AA with $200 effective, a raise to $10, 5 calls, we minraise to $20, everyone calls (as expected). This would create a 7way $140 pot with just $180 left, so an SPR just over 1 (can't get much lower than that). And yet it would also be a fairly meh play because we offered 6 opponents terrific IO of 26+:1 to call the raise (and yet we won't be able to fold postflop).

GcluelessNLnoobG

This is where we'll have to figure out our options.

In keeping with 1/2, let's say effective stack is $400 (200bb).

We limp AA, there's a raise to $10, and 3 callers. If we're targeting IO of 8:1, that would mean we should 3bet to about $65. Obviously it's a decent sized 3bet for 1/2 but it's not a horrendously overbig one given this much money already in the pot; worse case scenario is that everyone folds but we still collect $40 rake free and move on to the next hand. If anyone calls, great, trivial postflop stackoff.

But now let's say we limp AA, there's a raise to $10, and everyone folds to us. To target IO of 8:1, we'd need to raise to about $60, but that's a pretty massive limp/reraise against just $10 in the pot, and we probably mostly just take down $10 (not nearly as profitable as taking down $40 risk free as in the example above). But being this deep, we have options. We could just flat. This will create a $20 pot with $390 behind, so a big huge SPR 19.5, where we're obviously not going to stack off with just an overpair (so even though we're offering huge IO of 40:1 we're never going to actually give our opponent that unless we just suck so bad postflop). We could continue to underrep and play it passively or whatever postflop and hope maybe for 2 bets going in or 3 small bets and play a small but profitable pot, all the while not getting in a difficult SPR situation. Also opponent dependent; against a fish, we're perfectly fine seeing a flop; OOP against a solid player, maybe we're more fine with collecting the $10 preflop and moving on.

Cliffs: Aim for a low committing SPR where we've offered poor IO to our opponent(s) OR sometimes (especially when there is no real significant dead money in the pot preflop) just aim for a very high SPR (where we have lots of room for postflop poker with an underrepped hand without being handcuffed by committing SPRs).

GcluelessNLnoobG

True ty

Or don't get handcuffed by committing just because SPR is medium and be willing to take more profit early and be in some uncomfortable situations post sometimes.

SPR is not Ed Miller's permission to turn off your brain. Sure, when we can set up nice SPR situations organically, that's great, but we shouldn't be avoiding +++EV situations just because SPR won't be favorable for stacking off.

G, half the posts in this forum are "I raz cuz I haz a pretty hand, we go 5way OOP to flop (standard), SPR is 4, now whatz?". Those hands will define your sessions and make most other hands you play that session moot; if you don't play them well, you're simply not going to win overall. And most way overestimate how well they play these spots.

But, as always, I'll simply leave it up to the OP to decide what is a good situation versus bad situation for them, and they can play preflop based on that. If you think limp/reraising is stoopid, then don't limp/reraise.

GcluelesslimpreraisingnoobG

Multi-way preflop has not been solved so it’s impossible to know whether having a limp/RR strategy or having a 0% limp/RR strategy is more profitable given the same postflop skills.

I definitely see the merits and will be trying to use it to my advantage at the 1-2 tables. Thanks GG!

I l/rr about once every 40 sessions or so from UTG, almost always w/ 67s or similar into a thinking reg with multiple limpers in between. I would never regularly utilize this as part of a strategy.

If I was going to l/rr a monster it would be in LP with several limpets in front and an aggro V on BTN or in the blinds. Though I only do this at about the same frequency mentioned above.

This sounds about right, but my l/rr from UTG/EP is almost nil. The guys who do it regularly in my game w/ monsters either make little money or get crushed. However, it's a limited player pool, so it's easy to know who plays this way. Maybe it works at LLNL games in Vegas, etc., where the pool changes and nobody knows your name.

Even if it does get "solved" it will likely do us mere humans little good. Unless you're Rain Man, you're simply not going to be able to solve all the complexities of multiwayness (including multiple player stack sizes / ranges / tendencies / percentages of what they do with what when / etc., OOP to boot) to any remotely accurate estimate without a calculator/pen/paper/computer in the heat of the battle at the table in 30 seconds. So instead, you simply setup shortcuts (such as setting up desirable very small / very big SPRs) to put yourself in as many profitable spots as possible.

GgoodluckG

I've never once said you can't be profitable by never limp/raising. I'm sure there are a bunch of winners that never limp/reraise; if it's working for you, then continue doing that.

But to say the opposite (that no one can be decently profitable by limp/reraising especially in a reg filled game) basically flies in the face of stats that I've transparently posted (and I play in a very reg filled game where everyone knows everyone).

Git'snotasblackandwhiteasyouaremakingitG

If you are always limp/raising AA/KK from EP and it is making you money in a reg-filled game, more power to you. I have to wonder what level the regs are on, though

It does not work for the guys I play with.

Stats huh.

Have you determined if your open limp/rr is making more/as much money than the times you open raise that range?

Have you considered how open limp/rr those hands impacts your would-be always open raise range?

What about your open limp/call range? Have you considered how that impacts your open limp/r range and your open raising range?

I mean if I’m a reg playing against you, the counter strategies are ridiculously easy/profitable. You just never have as much KK/AA/AK when you open raise (because you limp it sometimes), you just never have KK+/AK when you open limp/call, etc etc.

It’s all just such complicated nonsense and completely unnecessary. You don’t need preflop frequencies/mixing in 1/3 nor post flop. You can crush (and I mean 12+bb hr) by just having ranges that play pure in their spots. This is always a raise, this is always a bet, this is always a check.

I feel we're going in circles on this, so I'm not going to address the validity of limp/reraising any more here.

OP asked a question regarding his limp/raise sizing, so perhaps we should keep it to that here.

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1 again. Limp rr is just a crutch for poor play.

Then you should be limp reraising A4o all day until it does.

???

I mean it does not work the guys who always limp/raise AA/KK. And they are never limp/raising A4.

It wouldn’t always be AA/KK

I think it has its place in wild games from EP or out of the blinds in a button straddle game. I’ve been in games where LRR with only a value range is substantially more +EV than opening. I’ve gotten people to call 40-50 BB limp reraises with very marginal hands like KJ. As a default strategy at an unknown table I don’t like it, but I don’t think it’s terrible though if done in a polarized way.