I play in a super-passive, call-happy live game.

The limp-raise (or limp-jam) from EP just drives me crazy lately.

I ran into a completely ridiculous spot last night:
100bb deep. UTG limps. Hero(UTG1) raises to 7bb with AKs.
3 callers. UTG raises to 55bb (leaving 45bb behind)
This is so incredibly bad. I will often find a fold here, certainly folding AQ and JJ. But with AKs... impossible. So I jam and the UTG idiot (I mean: villain) takes another 20 sec to decide (acting last) and put in his chips.
He has - of course - AA and is so extremely proud of himself, I could smash his face in.

The other night UTG @50bb limps QQ, I raise TT, and call the jam. Everything else would be exploitable (pussy) play, right!? He, again, is proud of his great play and is convinced I made a bad call.

Yes, there are certain players who will always have QQ+ or even KK+ if they make this move. Against those, I can obviously play perfectly. But what do I do with less known opponents. The limp-raise is kind of epidemic here, mostly a very strong pair, but others might also be doing it with AK or low pairs. The number of times I see AK just limp-called is alarming, though.

Only recently did I find out that even the more competent players in these games think it is a good strategy. The will use it against a perceived fish who they think will call their 3bet too light. I think they are complete idiots, too. (I mean: loosing lots of value with their big hands this way)

I sometimes employ the strat, too. But only in the special case with an aggro/lag to my left and many call-happy fish after him. My range will then be a lot wider, though and generate big value (due to dead money)

Sometimes, I shortstack and limp-jam all my pairs (55+) from EP. On a table with "competent" players this will generate a lot of folds, because they "know" that this move is done with big pairs. I've seen 99 folding to my limp-jam for 25bb and TT having a really tough decision.

So, to summarize, my questions are:
1. Should I ever make the exploitative fold with AK@100bb or TT@50bb or similar?
2. Should I raise less if a known trappy limper is in? (problem is, they certainly limp small pairs, too)
3. Should I raise as usual, and then just get away if UTG gives away his strength?
4. Should I overlimp more?
5. When should I be limp-raising myself, and with what ranges.

1) Yes. Basically every time. Until you see them do it light more than once, this is a minimum of AK/JJ+, and usually only QQ+.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
4) Yes.
5) Depends on table conditions, whether anyone is likely to raise for you, effective stacks, etc. I rarely use this strat, as it's so transparent, but if people like are paying off anyway, I'll pull it out occasionally from EP.

+1

The only think I add is that don't be results-oriented. Limp-re-raise live is usually quite strong and making some exploitative folds is ok. As most people are not capable of balancing enough to limp-re-raise with 87s.

I think you're tilting. You seem to be more concerned with not looking like a "pussy"? If this is really a $1/$2 NLHE game, and you have AKs and villain 3! over 50% of his stack (like 8x of your initial raise) You're behind so close to always that it's negligible. Villain has KK or AA, skewed heavily towards the latter. Against AA you're something like 7% to win.

The truth is, at $1/$2, you don't have to worry about making exploitable plays. There aren't very many villains that are stacking off light. It isn't the same at $5/$10. Players at that level and above, have a tendency to be more thinking. Every time you're re-raised AI with holdings like you describe, you're behind.

Obviously you're going to have situations that develop that will deviate from the above, but they won't happen often enough to balance stacking off with TT or AKs pre. Save that kind of stuff for tournaments when you're short stacked.

The fastest way to go broke in poker is making 5/10 moves at the 1/2 table.

The AKs vs AA was surely tilting me. I usually have my "pocket detector" on for situations like this, and it should have gone off big-time, because this limp-putInHalfStack move was so incredibly obvious. It was the first orbit though, and I was not really set up, scouting which table to switch to, so it failed badly.

The QQ limp-jam 50bb guy (unknown before) is now on my list forever, too. Yesterday he limped EVERY SINGLE HAND he played from UTG, raising/jamming 4 times. QQ+ every time. He got a whale to put in 80bb with limp, whale open to 10x, jam, call. Whale had AJs. I just looove it when this play gets punished by the whale hitting his A.

What is notable though, is that he is also limping garbage. I had at least 3 spots where he limp-surrendered to my raise.

In a game where limping is the standard, it is only natural that a move like this develops.
In advanced poker speech, one could state that they "protect their limping range" by also limping monsters. So, it is not the worst thing in the world, just not poker.

Thx for the comments, I am back to calmly detecting the "idiot move" and acting accordingly.

You really need to work on your attitude. Of course it's poker. Just because it's not a move you like doesn't mean it's not poker.

It's highly exploitable, but that doesn't make the people who use it idiots. Some are, some aren't. Often they have correctly determined that no one is exploiting them for it and it is a good move to exploit other exploitable play.

But most of all, if you show contempt for your customers, you are leading yourself towards tilt and are harming the game dynamic if they can tell how you feel. Chill out.

or you get gastritis or an ulcer

I'm a big limp/reraiser. That's basically all I do.

But it only works because people love to raise preflop because they've been conditioned to do so. Even at tables where most hands are raised and raises will often go 5+ ways (ask yourself why you're raising anything at all if this is the case).

ETA: Also +1 on working on your attitude / chilling out. There are many different ways to play poker, why are you getting upset at someone else's method? Instead, find a way to exploit it.

GcluelesslimpreraisingnoobG

You're right. But I feel that it makes the biggest dent in my winrate, so I get a little upset sometimes.

Yesterday again: I open AQs in UTG1 to 5x. UTG limp-jams 30 bb. Tough one again getting 38%. The guy was on my absolute nit list, but still... I think he must have TT/JJ in his range.

My thinking process is the following: They see that I open a little wider than usual. So they should be able to profitably limp-jam wider. But they just dont. Just dont assume any intelligence. It is ALWAYS QQ+/AK. Even at 30bb!

Interesting. But I assume you adjust to the lagginess of the raiser, or is it QQ+?

Why would they change their ways if some idiot is always likely to raise preflop and, on top of that, also lol consider calling their limp/reraises?

And you still have a demeaning tone in your posts ("don't assume any intelligence"). You're going to have a hard time lasting long term in this game if you are getting upset (and perhaps incorrectly judging) how others choose to play the game.

Gmaybeletthemdothem,andmeanwhileconcentratemoreony ou,imoG

Yes, definitely adjusting to the raiser, plus how many / who / stacks have called. Often times I'll limp in with the intention of limp/reraising most at the table, only to change my mind if I face a nitty raise. And sometimes if it looks like the pot is going to end up HU (no dead money to take down) I'll slowplay my monsters against someone who is capable of folding to a limp/reraise.

GitdependsG

You're just leveling yourself here. AQs is just an insta-muck here. Even if their range is TT+/AK, you're only 34% against their range, and often you're up against QQ+/AK and only have 28.6%. Frankly, I fold AQs facing a regular 3-bet from an unknown, and a limp-raise is obviously stronger than a normal 3-bet.

How could I not be demeaning if someone uses an idiot-play over and over, only to find more stupid idiots to pay him off.

I'll have a fun time long term in this game, because I am able to get better and adjust (i.e. add people to my list of nit limp-raisers), while they will still try to play their plainly stupid style.

If their "plainly stupid style" / "idiot play" wins, then exactly how idiotic can it be? And is it necessarily the case that there is a clearly better alternative play?

Gbutyoucontinuetothinkwhatyouwant,I'msuretheidiots won'tcareG

Maan, so many folks are trying to get you to understand this. Let me give it a shot. It's NOT an idiot play to do limp/re-raise. If someone is consistently giving them money, it IS better play than raising it up.

I sense that you don't see the irony in this statement despite the fact that you're posting it in a thread where you've described stacking off three times to this exact strategy.

More generally, how can you be so angry about a reasonably common strategy in LLSNL? I'm not even sure these guys are making a mistake, limp-raising monsters is perfectly valid if (i) pots with a single raise often go multi-ways, (ii) most pots are raised pre, (iii) three-bets usually get at least one caller and (iv) stack sizes are such that they can set up SPRs of 3:1 or less when called. I.e. if you limp with AA in a 1/2 game with $200 back, get a raise to $10, 2 callers, and you make it $50 and get a single caller. You've now set up a spot where the pot is $120 and you have like $150 behind and can just get it in on all boards with your overpair. Of course it's exploitable (people can just fold when you limp/reraise) but low limit NLHE players are not known for their ability to fold.

Aren't you the "idiot" paying them off? I'm super confused about what you're fuming about.

Imagine drinking the limp reraise kool aid?

Are there sim/solver results anywhere to be found about this topic???

I played it for a while, too.
As I said, short stacked up to 30bb it makes sense to me. Another important factor is the common PFR sitting to your left.
But I balanced it with pairs down to 77/88 and KJs, because people are suspecting QQ+ and overfolding.

So against myself AQs would be a correct and super easy call.

Our decisions should be based off of our villains perceived range. Unless we know otherwise, I feel pretty comfortable assuming a range of QQ, KK, and AA when facing an UTG limp/rr. There are obviously people capable of having AK and even some other stuff here, but until you know this to be the case there's nothing wrong with just folding in this spot.

And my point is, that a player that has a perceived and actual range of QQ+ here is AN IDIOT

I posted this hand in another thread recently. In this case, I actually had AKo, but I would have played QQ+ exactly the same way.

Cliffs: A Button straddle, SB calls, BB calls, I call AKo (just as I would AA/KK/QQ), UTG+2 $20, 5 calls, there's now $126 in the pot, the raiser has a $240 stack as do lots of others, and I limp/shove.

Something for you to ponder: Is raising AKo (or AA for that matter) and going 7way to the flop OOP going to be more EV than a minimum return of $126 (unraked preflop, FWIW) and possibly more (I end up getting it in against lol A9soooted for a raked EV of $160)? I have no idea what AA/AK/etc. makes per hand, but I'll bet you anything it isn't *remotely* close to that type of return, and I would also argue that going to a flop 7ways OOP here isn't going to generate near that type of return either, especially if your typical opponents are loose preflop but not completely moronic postflop (it's still likely EV but not nearly as much, although you are free to disagree). Admittedly we have to factor in that sometimes it limps around (unlikely at most tables nowadays although still an EV spot playing against limped dominated hands), or sometimes there's not much dead money in the pot when the action comes back to us, but all that does is lessen the overall EV somewhat and by no means make it a necessarily worse play than open raising ourselves.

GidiotG