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Old 05-12-2013, 05:59 PM   #1
LongBlondeHair
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Heart Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Hey,

I find that many including me have problems gasping the correct play from sb when we have limps ahead.
Here I am sitting at the table while writing this and because this 1/3 table is awful I called from the sb with A5o. Which if to think about it is bad imo.
Obiously we atleast call any Axs, pairs nd connectors.
What about the other types of hands let's discuss here, if already there isn't a topic about this then I'm sorry I couldn't find it.
And what types we should re pop i f we have 1-2, more standard bqd passive limpers ahead.
I don't want the exact ranges of course. Just let's discuse the right thinking about this exact situation with limpers.

Keep the sun shinin'
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:05 PM   #2
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

generally in a LLSNL game i think your playable SB hands are very narrow...

youd have to have sick reads on the table and relatively deep to think about playing a wider range on the SB besides the hands you mentioned in OP.

i dont think you should ever be repoping in the SB with limpers in the hand.. people are too call happy and youre way OOP postflop

so in a vacuum with your given description when there are limpers.. i personally am never repopping anything in the SB besides value hands (99+, ATs+). im just not too happy playing out of position with weak hands in the SB vs limpers at 1/2

and in terms of limping yourself... i feel like a lot of players limp ATC thinking BB is checking behind 100% or something and get themselves into a load of trouble on the flop.. ex. limping behind Q2s pre because its cheap family pot and flopping a flush and getting stacked by Axs and calling it a cooler.
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:32 PM   #3
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

I agree with the last bit Theo said. In pots like that we should be weary about flush over flush and trips over trips.

I do like raising pretty good hands out of the SB. KJ and KQ, AJ AQ. If at least 2 people limp, I will come in for the extra dollar with anything that has connectivity or paint card. If like 6 people limp, I will play anything.

NOTE: Probably not a good idea to try to bluff through 4 players on the flop when KQ whiffs...
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:38 PM   #4
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

i think raising KJ out of the SB is suicidal.
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:40 PM   #5
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

My guess is most 1/2 players would lose less money if they blind-mucked every single SB holding.
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:41 PM   #6
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfred View Post
My guess is most 1/2 players would lose less money if they blind-mucked every single SB holding.
this exactly
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:46 PM   #7
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

THEOSU,

I find that people love to limp call K10, K9, J8 suited and all other types of junk.
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:49 PM   #8
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

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THEOSU,

I find that people love to limp call K10, K9, J8 suited and all other types of junk.
while that may be true... you're seeing so many flops where you don't necessarily hit anything with your KJ and you're OOP with no idea how to play on a random board. Youre most likely check folding unless you hit a K and being so out of position limits you from really doing anything to win enough pots in the SB at low live stakes for this to be profitable
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:52 PM   #9
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

fair enough. I respectfully disagree.
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Old 05-12-2013, 06:54 PM   #10
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

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THEOSU,

I find that people love to limp call K10, K9, J8 suited and all other types of junk.
Limp-calling with those hands assumes that Hero has position. That's not the case here. Hands like KJ from the SB are massive reverse implied odds hands, which are the bane of players whose post-flop skills are inadequate. It's tough enough when you do have decent post-flop skills and the cascade of limp-callers see the flop along with you.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:05 PM   #11
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Let's put it this way - my SB raising range is even tighter than my UTG raising range. KJo is a complete, nothing more, assuming multiple limpers. If you flop top pair, value bet but don't get crazy.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:27 PM   #12
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

I think it's advisable to play extremely snug from the small blind. This is even more true in a 1-3 game. I don't see the appeal of voluntarily committing more money to the pot with a garbage hand when you're in the worst possible position.

If there are several limpers, I might come in with a variety of suited hands, especially if they are connected. I'll always call with a suited ace or two broadway cards.

My raising range in the SB is very tight. I'll often raise AK, but not always. In general, I'm raising TT+.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:33 PM   #13
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

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and in terms of limping yourself... i feel like a lot of players limp ATC thinking BB is checking behind 100% or something and get themselves into a load of trouble on the flop.. ex. limping behind Q2s pre because its cheap family pot and flopping a flush and getting stacked by Axs and calling it a cooler.
I don't think stacking off with the third-nut flush is a big leak, so I'm not sure I concur with your example. I think you're just as likely to make a fair amount of money from someone who makes a flush with JTs or 76s.

However, I agree with your overall point that people play way too many hands from the small blind and then put themselves in tough spots later in the hand as a result.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:38 PM   #14
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

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I don't think stacking off with the third-nut flush is a big leak, so I'm not sure I concur with your example. I think you're just as likely to make a fair amount of money from someone who makes a flush with JTs or 76s.

However, I agree with your overall point that people play way too many hands from the small blind and then put themselves in tough spots later in the hand as a result.
oh yes definitely. your second paragraph pretty much sums my main point

obviously im not gonna say stacking off with 3rd nut flush is a bad play, probably doing that myself if it happened to me most of the time. i think the leak is moreso the preflop play of limping horrible hands hoping to catch a miracle flop for a cheap price with horrible RIOs
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:20 PM   #15
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

I guess I would agree with most of the other posters that playing tight in the SB is generally good. Generally, here's what I'm looking at:

Raising hands - pretty much value hands only. Remember that you will usually either have to raise very big to thin out a field or you will get called by almost every limper. So if you have 5-6 limpers in a 1/2 game and you raise to 14 or so, plan on being out of position against 4-5 other players with a pot of $80 or so right off the bat. In that case, I'm only raising with QQ+, usually. If your hand can't stand that kind of action, either just complete or raise really big if you must raise.

Calling hands - I want something that plays well out of position, in general. I hate hands like KJ and QT here, but I'll play pretty much any pocket pair. Suited connectors are fine as long as there are enough limpers to make it worthwhile. Just remember that you will have try to read your opponents well.

Folding - anything marginal, I'll fold, and I won't feel bad about it. Remember that the reason you can play so many more hands on the button is that you have position. From the SB you have the worst position possible. Your range should reflect that fact.

In general, I think you should basically be playing your UTG range, but raising PF less since you aren't likely to drive folks out. And then add in some limping hands where you can hit monsters (like small pocket pairs) since your chances of seeing a cheap flop are good enough to justify taking the shots.
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Old 05-12-2013, 09:45 PM   #16
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

I'm probably playing most As from the SB. But I play those hands pretty tight postflop. For $1, it's worth with a hand like A2, A3, A4 for possibly flopping two pair or a wheel.

I advocate reading GG's thread that was stickied ... He has some good advice about how to play out of the blinds.
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Old 05-12-2013, 09:56 PM   #17
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

This is coming from someone who has played a lot of live poker - FWIW I believe my range is pretty darn close to optimal. I am a SB nit

General SB calling range at $1/2 games: Axss, kxss, 75ss gappers+ 45ss connectors+, completing unsuited 98+, and T8o+ is bottom of my complete unsuited gapper range. I will fold all other suited trash, even Qxss, Axo.

Raising out of blinds: KJss+ KQo+, ATss+ etc. Sometimes it is slightly wider if players play really straightforward. I will put in a raise with QJ, JTss if there are maybe 2 limpers. I raise 88+ under just about all circumstances. If table has no fold equity (droolers) I will just complete hands like 77/88. Obviously completing all baby pairs.

My completing range for $2/5 is a bit tighter because of the extra $3 and the fact that players are less willing to go broke in a limped pot.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:23 PM   #18
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Assuming ur at a passive calling station table and there are two limps or more, I'd raise pre with 1010+ and aq+ and sometimes aj+, kq+, 99+. U really can't raise much more than that as ur OOP and u risk the chance of being dominated too often where people limp call pre with hands as strong as ak or 1010 and where u have no fold equityo

Last edited by slimshady1999; 05-12-2013 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:25 PM   #19
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Limp in with ur other pocket pairs, ax suited, 46s+, 45s+, 89o+ and fold everything else and ull be fine (at least in terms of pre flop from blinds lol).
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:31 PM   #20
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfred View Post
My guess is most 1/2 players would lose less money if they blind-mucked every single SB holding.
This. Most people don't realize that EVERYONE loses money in the long run from the blinds. No matter what exact range u decide on that range should be fairly tight
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:25 PM   #21
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Best improvement to my win rate was taking my frequent smoke breaks during the blinds. I smoke fast so I can fold UTG smoke during the BB get back to the table in time to buy the button. This is akin to not letting small children play with sharp objects... don't let cAm play his blind he hurts himself less. Then I Check my $3 SB or fold it to a raise and get ready to play my button. Dead serious I pay $3 per orbit to play 1/2. Doesn't matter when I pay or from what position. When I think bout it that way I feel less compelled to complete the SB. I first started thinking of this when watching the Pokerstars "Big Game" where one position (the button I think) payed all the antes.

When I have to play my SB because smoking every orbit is decidely unhealthy, my play varies. During my A game I fold a lot of SBs. "But what about the fabulous pot odds?" you ask.

You will be a loser from the blinds over the course of your poker career IMO. You will spend 20% of your poker career or more playing from the blinds. Minimizing losses here is critical.

All I can say is when I m playing well I fold a lot from the blinds. When I am on monkey tilt everything looks like Aces for $1. The rest is in between.

Tight is right and taking down a pot OTF is a spectacular result from the blinds IMO.

That said... I usually complete the SB too often.

Oh BTW... fold your SB a couple times in a row against unknown fish and you will find that even the most unobservant morons will comment on how tight you are. Then every 10th or 20th orbit you can whack the limpers to cover your $1 losses or otherwise take advantage of your tight image.

Last edited by cAmmAndo; 05-12-2013 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:22 AM   #22
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

i tried to fold more out of the SB tonight, i really did. i looked down at 2d 5d. 'i can make a straight flush.' lol. flop 224. check/call. turn 10. bet call. river 10. bet. get called by A high. yeah, fold more pre.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:13 AM   #23
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongBlondeHair View Post
this 1/3 table is awful I called from the sb with A5o. Which if to think about it is bad imo.
Pay attention to limping ranges and postflop tendencies of the limpers. Especially if they limp/call and how the players react to preflop raises(especially the players to your left). Watch for limpers who habitually fold to raises. They are here to see flops and try to make the nuts(usually).

I don't really have a set play from the SB except for premiums obv. As Pay mentions if no players are limping monsters then you can raise and isolate with what you feel may be trouble hands when actually your opponent will be in trouble. This concept is covered in Harrington on Cash games.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:07 AM   #24
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

Grunch:

you could fold everything without looking from the sb and probably increase your winrate. I complete PP up to 99 from the sb depending on # of limpers. I'll complete AJ, AT depending on limpers. If I do complete, it's very fit or fold afterward. Everything else is spewy.

OP's suggested range is hella bad.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:13 AM   #25
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Re: Lets talk about playing live poker from the SB when there are limpers.

I have had many arguments with 2+2ers on this topic in the past. Seems most think hands as strong as A6o and K10o should be folded. My basic strategy is to complete the SB with well over 50% of my hands. I'd fold some of the very worst hands, like the bottom 20%, as well as hands like Q2o or J4o.
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