Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Let's discuss this bluff Let's discuss this bluff

12-17-2019 , 11:13 AM
I don't remember if Villain 1 was in SB and Villain 2 in the BB or whether Villain 1 was in the BB and Villain 2 UTG. Doesn't matter much. Villain 1 was pretty loose maybe a bit sticky, maybe a bit bluffy as well, while villain 2 still loose though signifcantly less, while also being less prone to getting out of line.

On to the hand. Stacks $330 effective.

Tight passive raises from EP to 15, Hero calls with TT, two calls, Villain 1 calls, Villain 2 calls.

Flop (75) 987

Villain 1 donks 30, Villain 2 raises to 75, Hero calls, everyone else folds.

Turn (300) 5 Villain 1 checks, Villain 2 checks, Hero goes all in for $240.

I obviously have some thoughts on the hand, but I don't want to influence your response, so I am putting them in a spoiler. Please read the spoiler after you have replied, if of course you want to reply.

Spoiler:
First of all, I think the turn call might be a mistake, though it really feels nitty to fold top pair and a straight draw. My top pair is 90% no good though and my spade outs are probably dirty. Anyway, it can go either way.

As far as the bluff goes, I think it has a lot of things going on for it. I obviously have a good chunk of equity if I get called. I think my opponents capped their ranges with their turn checks and they don't have JT which I am blocking as much as one can. Also significant I am not blocking the flush draw and there is a non-zero amount of time in which this is a value betting against two flush draws, obviously not very often.

However, while Villain 2 doesn't have the nuts, he does have a very nutted range consisting of two pair, sets and perhaps the lower straight.The part of that range that may fold may be equal or smaller to the part that does call and that's not a necessity as two pair hands might still find a call.

On a related note, Villain's turn size is worth discussing. I see it a lot in 1/3 and feels weak strong, in other words, a strong hand that isn't the nuts. So in game it felt more of a two pair to me and not a set. However, bitter experience tells me that this mini raise is often extremely strong with the logic behind it being that people don't want to chase away worse hands. What do you think?

Last but not least, if I am only shoving JTs for value and TT as a bluff, I am probably overbluffing the spot. Moreover, perhaps TT isn't the best bluff hand as it has some showdown value and I should be shoving QTs. OTOH, should I be calling QTs on the turn?
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 12:11 PM
the raise feels like 2 pair or maybe 88
you say everyone else folds but then have both V's checking ????
so other V called the $45?????

given stack sizes a shove isn't way out of line but I most likely would have checked back

like you said a sticky player isn't going anywhere and we are behind here
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 12:16 PM
Grunch
I three-bet fold pre- bump it up to 50, IMO. flop play I like the call/ eval line, though it does matter alot whether V2 was UTG or BB, I'd assume if he was BB he'd have many more 2pr combos and less rando overpair raises... on the turn honestly I just take my equity and check back...kinda hard for us to have a 6 here 6x7x and 66 are pretty much our entire straight range even 6x7x prob shouldn't peel the flop unless its 7d6d...

Also was v2 the tight passive from UTG or was there another player UTG that was the tight passive then V2 called behind...in that case I like a flat call better against an open and a call from EP in front of us.
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 12:25 PM
Just to clarify, if VIllain 2 was UTG, he limped. It was another relatively passive player who raised from EP. Trying to remember here, I think villains were in the blinds, because I think villain 1 was next to the Button. Could be wrong.

Villain 1 called the $45 raise on the flop.
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 12:45 PM
Prefer to 3b preflop in position. But w/e.

Flop donk suggests minimum two-pair/fd from donker and minimum set/fd from raiser. Hero's overcall is very strong, even with relative position. This probably slows down the Vs ott.

It's perhaps worth discussing the merits of the flop play. You're getting over 2-1 on this overcall, but it's hard to figure Hero's equity against these ranges. We're thin against a made hand AND the FD draw. We don't close the action and V1 could have easily jammed it in and put us in a tight spot. In order to overcall here, we have to think we can use position on the turn to our great advantage. But any spade turn would be problematic. Against capable Vs I could find a flop fold here.

OTT: I feel like we need FE after this turn when it checks to us and I understand why H jams. But I'm wondering what we're repping here beyond 66 and JTs. I think two-pair hands can find a fold but sets may not getting over 2-1 on a call.

It's a high variance spot. If you're overcalling flop, I think you're jamming almost any non-spade turn in position when it checks to you to drive out the FD and press FE against all V's two-pair combos.
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 12:50 PM
I don't like flatting the flop at these stack depths. I think you should rip it or fold, with both being pretty good options. If they have a set, you still have ten clean outs and even in the unlikely circumstance they have JT you still have a couple of chop outs.
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtm1208
I don't like flatting the flop at these stack depths. I think you should rip it or fold, with both being pretty good options. If they have a set, you still have ten clean outs and even in the unlikely circumstance they have JT you still have a couple of chop outs.
+1. I think the flat pre is good, given that you’re likely way behind PFR’s 3! continuing ranges but OTF just shove/fold with these stack sizes. Great flop for you

I like a 3! a lot more when there are overcallers in between because they’re likely to be capped, so you’re incentivized to take advantage of the dead money overlay
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 01:00 PM
I don't see you having any 6 very often. To me it looks a lot like you have a spade draw.

That said I do think it's a good semi bluff because you do have an overpair, outs to the better straight and you heavily block JT.

Also who knows what your line looks like to a couple of live humans.

Overall I don't think this can be losing.
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 01:11 PM
I'm going to assume 1/3 NL due to stack sizes and preflop raise sizing?

I'm not in love with being the first caller when we're almost mostly in a ~setmining spot, but with a hand this far up in our range I'm still fine with preflop (especially if we expect the world to come along behind us and no 3bets).

I fold the flop. People play a lot more straightforwardly / honestly in these spots (checking to the raiser be damned in a big pot on a drawy board). This is a pretty sucky board which smashes a bunch of hands and all we have is a sucky dirty OESD with a weak overpair; even the times we're lucky enough to be ahead we're not exactly crushing. Plus we still have others to act behind us, plus the betting is reopened, plus V2 isn't prone to getting out-of-line (and with the world + the raiser still to react behind him, this is pretty out-of-line).

I think with them both checking the turn on a still very drawy board that we can safely eliminate nut hands like made straights. Even though the 5 is a bit of a scare card it ain't like the main scare card, so with these stacks I'd assume sets would probably just still rip it in too (and I'd assume V1 would have ripped it in with a set on the flop); so I think sets are sorta discounted. Which to me leaves big draws that haven't gotten there yet and two pair hands. We're ahead of the big draws (so a shove is for value) but we're looking for FE against two pairs (although how much do we have with just a < PSB left). Think I might actually be ok with the turn shove, but I'm not convinced it's a 100% bluff.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Let's discuss this bluff Quote
12-17-2019 , 10:20 PM
Just pile it in on the flop. You double block the only hand you’re way behind. If you’re really lucky someone calls you with T9 or something and the other folds 2P.

I do not believe you cold-called flop with a six here. Just be happy they let you realize your equity/SDV.
Let's discuss this bluff Quote

      
m