Hi all,

The hand takes place in a £ 1-3 LIVE full ring game. Buy in capped at £1000. The game has been live and passive with a lot of 4-5 way action to the flop. Standard of play is passive Post flop as well.

I have a strong image and have shown down a few winners played with relatively straightforward lines, as you do against lap competition.

3 persons are involved in the hand.
FIsh - HJ - A lap player who has been opening a lot pre and regularly calls raises. Plays a loose brand of fit or fold post flop but is easy to steal from and rather transparent on later streets. (Stack 2200)
Vilain : in CO is TAG, straightforward, sometime over protective of hands. Thinking Player, can be bluffed. (stack 1200)
Hero : In the SB, TAG image, (stack 1800)

The Hand :
Blinds 1-3
folded around to Fish, he opens HJ for stdd raise £16. Vilain in the CO, Flat calls £16. BT folds. Hero opens 98 in SB and 3Bet to 62. Fish HJ flats for 62. (Looking unhappy and clearly not considering a raise).

Now the interesting part : Vilain tanks for 10 seconds and announces 4Bet raise to £216.

Hero tanks 20 seconds and repops a 5Bet to 466....

So What do you say ?? Legit Spot or sick Gamble ??


A bit on my thought Process, Vilain here has a lot of middling hands, I see his range as 88-JJ, AJs, AQ possibly AK (QQ a possibility but likely to three bet himself in position in such a live passive game). One possibility is he slowplayed a monster, but he would have tanked ever so slightly before flating the initial raise. Most players take a few seconds there. It did not happen, nor did i see any sign of intention to trap a potential reraiser (I think I have a good read on him at the time). So when he 4Bets, I think he has AQ maybe or most likely 88-TT. On this basis and having shown strength with the 3Bet, I think the 5Bet is profitable based on fold equity alone. £466 here is a stack decision for him.

Your thoughts please. Thanks for reading.

I vote spew.

^^^^^ agree
just seems like a dick swinging comp,
I feel this just burning money on firer, I just dont see him folding here that often after he 4 bets.I am guessing he got JJ+ here 100% of the time

With the reads you have we really should NEVER be 5-betting light. If your question is on sizing, your sizing is great. The problem is that your read really doesn't tell us that V 4-bets light. Just because someone is aggressive doesn't mean that they will 4-bet light. Also - if villain is a bad aggressive player (as opposed to good aggressive) he may not gold hands that should be folding to make this profitable.

This looks like FPS to me. If this was a good move you probably wouldn't be posting in these forums.

I agree it's probably a spew, but I still like it, probably because I am a degen and play in way too many nitty games in vegas.

good sizing, I don't really put him on aces or even kings, so you should get quite a few folds with his stack size. I guess you can always fold if he jams.

Nice hand by the way, pretty sure you took it down.

interesting play.

you are playing off of the weakness of the fish, and V is playing off of your read of the fish, and reading you as not very strong.

not a bad play, but if you are going for max FE, you should just shove.

do you ever vote anything else?

Maybe. A villain who is capable of reading this line may be more than capable of reading a shove as a bluff. When you get in to these advance leveling wars these things come in to play.

Basically what I am saying is that raising to 466 accomplishes the same thing that raising to 1800 does but we save 1344 in dead money to accomplish these results.

If villain is capable of calling thess types of bets light we probably don't need to be playing against him.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the great feedback. I see the response is very polarized, and mostly against. Well IMHO its a valid play. Think of ranges represented here ; what do V flat call and then 4Bet when it comes back around ? (Agreed the play he makes is goofy at best and there is certainly none of this on a decent limit online). Again the table has been passive, very few 3 bets so I don't see him having KK, AA, with these, he is repoping to isolate especially in position. This is LIVE Game, and this looks like the typical compulsive move of someone with a decent hand that feels like the three bet is a steal and wants to resteal. Now put to the decision for his stack, he is under a different type of pressure.

On the 5Bet now, it shows massive strength here and especially at these live tables where regs are nitty, it typically represents only AA, KK, according to local playing style. In Vilains mind here, Hero has these hands 80%, the rest of Hero's range is composed of AKs, QQ, AQs and these are considered a gambling hands. V and H have limited history (4 hours playing together0 so he can not see put Hero on a move here.



Sorry what is FPS ?

V does not 4 bet light, but 4bet after initially flatting is a very telling play, one that screams, of relative weakness and relative strength here. Hence medium pairs.

Pushing vs raising £466 : I disagree on the shove, the play is most profitable when 5Bet is a commitment decision for V without being one for Hero. Plus a big all in push is not as strong in this game as it looks fishy. After raising £466, If he calls, I shut down, If he pushes, I fold. The pot is 66+66+216 = 340 and I am betting 400 into it. So the play needs to fold vilain around 65%?? rughly to be EV+. With his range, I think there is very few calls in his range, again based on table style of play, Hero image and V being a thinking tag able to lay down hands.

Again based on playing these tables for the last year, the range of my 5bet here is AK, KK+ only. The only hands liable to call are AK, QQ+ maybe JJ, TT (frustration calls) or the ones I am representing AA, KK.

Please tell me what ranges you see V on ?
Then I'll post the outcome.

you read everyone else as easily bluffed and yourself as TAG. warning sign #1.
you 3! a hand that plays superbly as a call, evaluate post hand. warning sign #2.
you spew 5! pre against a player that prolly floated to trap and you have no depth or equity to repop. warning sign #3.

i'm all for creative moves in cash, but this is a spew. kudos if live reads prevailed, but you won't make a living out of it. and FPS = fancy play syndrome i.e. there are easier ways to make $ especially on a standard LAP cash table.

I don't think your reads are (at all) good enough to justify this play. I have NEVER 5-bet light in a live game (I rarely even 3! light), and to justify it you really need to have very solid reads and reasons on your villains.

Here's what's wrong with yours:

"FIsh - HJ - A lap player who has been opening a lot pre and regularly calls raises. Plays a loose brand of fit or fold post flop but is easy to steal from and rather transparent on later streets. (Stack 2200)"
-- He's loose-passive, but he opens a lot preflop and is "easy to steal from"...? This is contradictory; maybe you meant he's LAG preflop but loose-passive post, but loose-passive play usually involves lots of limping pre and checking/calling post. So this villain is different than the "usual", and if you really DID have a good read on him, you would have specified in much more detail what his tendencies are. Have you seen him play in 3! pots before? How does he respond to 3-bets? My best guess from what you've presented would be: he calls them a lot (regularly calling raises, you said, and is "LAP"). So if this is true: why are you trying to 3! him as a bluff, when you should just be going for value against him with your preflop raises and reraises?


"Vilain : in CO is TAG, straightforward, sometime over protective of hands. Thinking Player, can be bluffed. (stack 1200)"

Straightforward, but clearly is doing something not straightforward here. Either he has a premium hand that he flatted with pre instead of 3-betting, or he is now 4-betting light. Basically, something is missing from your explanation of your reads. I wouldn't be surprised if your image is actually a lot more LAGgy than you think.

Stacks are deep enough that he's getting good implied odds to call with position with all his medium pairs and pretty much anything else. I'm putting him on QQ+, AK, maybe some KQ or KJ that don't want to just call pre and has the nice blockers for a 4! bluff. I don't see much else here. Especially if he's a solid TAG and usually fairly straightforward.

FPS = Fancy Play Syndrome

Again, yes, if you're going to 5-bet this is the correct amount. It sets us up for a PSB shove on the flop, which a thinking villain should be aware of.

As for the flat followed by the 4-bet, unless you've seen villain do this before with medium strength hands in the past I am just not playing back at him. I've seen plenty of fish make strange lines then end up having AA. Without significant reads I'm never making these moves.

Hi all, thanks again for your inputs.

Thanks for the FPS explanation and I admit I found myself making a couple these plays since I moved up from 1-2(400 cap) a month ago. I see the play at these 1-3 as more aggro and can develop more advanced concepts.

Hence my post here as I got sucked into this 5Bet spot. I 100% agree, I am effectively a LAG player. The TAG image I benefit from on this day is circomstantial. I qualified my image as such due to going card dead for 2 hours before this hand, and prior to that having shown a rush of good hands that I won. So my image is very good and TAG (... spot on to whom said I am LAG, I doubt a real TAG will take this line)

I chose, Kler's response as it is the most detailed and develops the first key part of the spot, the 3Bet. I leads to most of what you all have been saying.

On 5B! light Live. Agreed, I had never ever done it at a live table before and probably will not repeat for 1000s of hands. But thats not in its own a reason to pass up here, you rarely find this spot either.

First, lets go back to the initial 3Bet. You are right, the hand plays well as a call. With the stack sizes it is a very good hand to play, even when relinquishing the aggression factor, you can either find your flop and play OOP or fold on the Flop. FINE.
Where I disagree with your clearcut argument vs the 3B! is : 3betting here is stealing the initiative versus Fish and vs Vilain, it is designed specifically to Iso fish and fold V. If I get called, I still have a SPR of 20, so there is play left and F is fit or fold player post flop. This, also balances my value range when I 3Bet out of the blinds. Granted an absolute fish does not require a balanced range most of the time, but here the fish plays 400BB deep. Ultimately If you only 3Bet for value, the fish is going to figure it out also, he is not hte best player at this limit but is not brain dead either. This is a Fish that plays these tables often, even though he is sub optimal (Yes I'll say it even though you all call me a crazy lag based on one spot... ;-) Haha... Fair enough given the play). So I agree with you, most of the session I will 3Bet Fish for value. Fish is pretty much opening any two suited cards, any connectors, any Ax, 2face cards, 22+. So the equity of 89s is not bad, add to this the fold equity from the three bet, it allows me to steal often on the flop.


You are also correct in clarifying Fish is : "maybe you meant he's LAG preflop but loose-passive post, but loose-passive". (still learning hand description, First post here)"

So I agree with you, the play is already fancy at this stage. I make a move on F, he calls as is usually the outcome. There, Kler et al, I see why you dont like this part. I agree and I confirm most of the session I was pure valuing versus this guy, except some steals post flop in position. Yes I have played this fish about 100 hours over the last 4 months. So we know each others game.

So I make a move on Fish, in a spot where I'd normally be raising for value. Again, with a hand that constitutes the bluffing part of my range, I have no issue with this situation and am happy to play the hand OOP versus him. You guys really never ever do this ? I thought it is common practice online and advertised by most coaching sites for limits 1-2,2-4 and up online...

Also Kler, Do you play 300-400 BB deep live ? This clearly comes into play here especially for the 3Bt Bluff. when valuing on later in the session I can gain action from marginal hands in bloated pots. (I am LAG definitely)

Now back to the 4Bt 5Bt. I transition from playing Fish, I end up facing a decision versus Vilain. Again, Fish is clearly out after V 4Bet. I pick up an easy tell from F who is clearly smiling and indicating a fold. Step 1.

Then, V's range. I disagree with anyone saying he has JJ+, AK here. AK is a 3B in position for this guy, so is QQ+. He may have JJ and thats the hand I am worried about, but against the F open (40-50% of combos) from this spot, Vilain would definitely 3Bet for value. He has not shown any trickyness all day and seems prone to big laydowns. So I think his range is 88-JJ AJs-AQs (based on live read I rule out AA or KK trap...hard to argue, I understand).
So he has a decent hand but not extremely strong. But it really is not the only consideration. In a game where SPR on the flop is usually 100, a 5Bet here is asking him to commit 40% of his stack to this hand SPR of 1 if he calls. Thats max pressure for minimum price. Step 2.

I see his calling range to a 5Bet as being considerably tighter than his 4Bet range. I'd say only QQ+ and AK. You see here, no intersection with the range I see him 4bet here. Step 3

Again, he has no indication I am the LAG you all see. I am TAG in his eyes. Thats a big factor ! Step 4

He thinks along the following lines :
Tendencies of the regulars at these tables are : 3bet ranges are very strong, most often TT+, AQs+,AQ+, Some bluffs but player dependant. 4 bets are usually QQ+, AK exclusively. But this does not apply to a call raise, then 4bet, hence the rather small range I narrow his hand to. Step 5

He is really proud of his ability to fold a hand, as has been demonstrated a couple times in the previous 4 hours. Step 6.

Hence the move...
Happy for you to point again where you agree and disagree. Sorry for the long post. I just think its worth disecting this one. Thanks for your help.

Next post is the outcome.

V in CO flat called an open raise from the HJ, then back raised after the blind three bet and HJ called.

V has AA.

It is very typical for a player with AA, esp with position, and only one player in the hand up to that point, to just call looking to trap.
Action is re opened by the blind and the pot is looking multiway with dead money worth winning, he reveals the strength of his hand and back raises.

At worst, I put him on TT+, AK, AQ, but his most likely hand is AA.
QQ and KK are also likely but players do three bet those hands more often to protect against Ax hands.

If 98s won this hand, congrats. You're running good.

This play is spew.

Players don't flat and then four bet without big hands. And once they do make that play, they rarely fold.

Hi Brojay,

Thanks for this. You are correct in that last paragraph, thats where I see a spew is if there is one. I just don't see this play ever from a good player here, his body language is not consistent with the play either. It just all feels weird and goofy at the time..."

But point taken this is high variance and mostly too risky to justify consistently making the move without having a string read. Hence my post as I feel this is on the edge thanks to live reads.

Thanks DutchStreet. Such a clear summary of the standard play there is usefull. I agree with you on this basis. For some reason though, the live reads told me otherwise.

Thank you all for the comments. Conclusion : I Ran good !!! I accept your advice (or I managed to pick up enough tells to make a play... wishfull thinking).

So the outcome :
Fish insta muck still smiling.
Vilain starts to tank. Takes his time, starts moaning, asks "Why would you do that", pulls his hair, but never cuts the chips, looks at his hand again, lifts it up and after a good 2 minutes, folds 99 face up.

A hand he would never play for 400 BB. I Ran Good indeed. (Or was I right ??, I am more convinced of your truth now, do not worry, your efforts were not lost).

One last comment, I will probably never make the move again in this casino. See... I showed. Then I ran good some more. Over the course of 5 more Hours, both the fish and Vilain lost more than 75% of their stacks to me calling my flushes down with top pair each time. I netted +5 Buyins on the session playing my standard thinking LAG in large part thanks to the move.

Still a spew ? haha. Tell me one more time !

Based on the information you've provided, yes, it's still spew. If villain was a fairly straightforward TAG he would have been flatting the 3! with odds and position to set-mine, raising is terrible there.

You haven't really provided, or I missed, your reasoning for including all these pocket pairs in villain's range. It doesn't make any sense to me, there's no reason to 3! them, it just opens him up to getting 5-bet, which is what happened.

Either your read on V was wrong, or it was sort of right but you interpreted it wrong, and villain isn't really a TAG, he's just clicking buttons, but is a bit weak also. It's a strange combination -- my main point, the first I made, is the only one that I think matters:

You're description of villains is not detailed or specific enough to justify you making this move. So unless you actually DID have a good read but DID NOT explain it in your posts, then you're likely just being results oriented.

Cliffs: OP attempts to light his stack on fire, but fails. He then brags about it.

BTW..Your reads on CO are way off. To merge 99 into a bluff is really, really bad.

The last thing I will say, despite results because I haven't seen them yet, is your action caused the fish to eventually leave the hand. We want to keep the fish in when possible.

Don't think V ever has QQ+ after flatting the initial open from a fish; he's iso'ing the fish with a 3b with those hands 100% of the time. As such, this looks good since you can fold out hands like TT/JJ. However, I'd rather just flat PF the first time around and play a pot against the fish. Also, V's 4b with 99 is atrocious.

Ok so I've discussed the whole limp/rr in late position (what villain did) at length and how it is virtually always exactly as you described, he recognized that you are probably exploiting the fish with your 3bet, so he's trying to do the same thing to you now, failing to recognize that ship has already sailed and his sudden 4bet makes no sense given position and timing of it all.

However this spot was a little different. From the very beginning I was going to say snap fold, and yes actually snap fold, dont hollywood. Let him think you were bull****ting so that he's more apt to pull this stunt next time you have a hand. Here's what makes this hand a bit different than the usual airball 4bet OTB; villain is aware fish is out of line and was probably trapping with his 99 more or less. Truthfully he should have 3bet this himself, but he wanted the less variance route apparently. Great implied odds anyway if everyone is 2k deep. While his read on you was correct, he should have just kept up with his original plan to trap, afterall if he knows you're both weak then his 99 is plenty ahead enough that he can play in position with or without any implied odds.

So the reason I fold THIS time, is because I know he's probably doing this at the bottom of his value range, but 89s just aint gonna cut it and I cant be certain he's going to fold. Now that we know he had 99 I'd certainly say this is the bottom of his value range.

As a general rule too, a hand like 89s plays sufficiently well out of position when this deep. There's really no need to be 3betting this. I'd rather 3bet a hand like 89o or something that is much harder to play since of course we take initiative and can steal the pot either preflop or on the flop. We dont mind getting bluffed off JTo or other weak hands. But 89s is just too good of a spot to risk folding pre this deep, so I elect for a call rather than a squeeze.

I disagree. If we give V credit for 99+, and pocket pairs only, we can make it 466 and then fold if V shoves. but I don't range V nearly that strong, therefore, we are already pot committed when we make it 466, and therefore, we should be shoving for max FE

I dunno. I am kind of torn on his 4b. He had a decent read, but he was just unable to go with it.

But when he flats the first raise, he is all but telling the table that he has TT-, and he can never ever rep a big hand here.

Nor would you want to. Thats what makes the late position limp/rr so ridiculous. If you have a big hand and you were trapping before the squeeze, then continue ****ing trapping. What motive is there to ever turn your hand face up, or turn your bluff face up? You have position, ****ing use it and flat behind, keep your range wide. If there is already 200BB in the pot preflop you dont need to get the rest in with AA or whatever, and you wreck your chances of stacking someone with all of your speculative hands that made it this far.