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Learning to fold AA/KK, help Learning to fold AA/KK, help

06-12-2021 , 09:16 AM
Hello, I almost didn't post because I don't have a specific hand history and I feel like I may get flak for lack of details. However, I really just at least need to try and ask for help. I couldn't find the general advice I'm looking for via search tool but I'm not the most adept at searching forums either.

I play 1/2 NL live and my big losing hands are almost always calling down with TPTK or an overpair like AA or KK.

Obviously there are a million variables to consider but if I am not chasing a draw how should I be responding to repeated bets of 50% pot? Again I know super general question but I'm just looking for general advice.

For example sitting with 100bb last night I preflop raised KK from late position with 10bb into limped pot and ended up with 3 callers pot is 30bb. Flop is J92 rainbow, Mid position preflop caller bets 15bb I call everyone else folds. Pot now 60bb. Turn offsuit 5. Mid position bets 30b, I call now pot is 120bb. River 7. Mid position bets 45bb to put me all in.

I don't generally want to stack off with an overpair but I also find it hard to fold to 1/2 pot bets on the way there and then finishing with about a 1/3 bet pot on the river. I feel like I've seen so many people just lead with top pair ok kicker or top pair with a draw.

I realize I need to be thinking about ranges. What hands are my opponents limping calling with vs raising etc. Here my opponent had T8 suited. I figure they could also have J9 offsuit or at this level even J2 suited or even 92suited

In the end I know I need more practice, I know I need to study hand histories but my problem in these situations is feeling like my hand is too good to fold to a flop bet, then am I just supposed to be ok letting it go each time to a turn and river bet. If I was checked to on these boards I feel like I'd be happy betting 1/2 pot each street with my overpair and getting called. Maybe not on river since I might only get called by better with no draws to come. Sorry for the mess of a post, I need to get ok with folding these hands or I will be always be another fish.

When am I ok calling down with these hands?

Thanks for any coaching you can provide.
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-12-2021 , 10:08 AM
You usually shouldn't be folding these hands on "safe" boards. I wouldn't have folded in the hand history, and prefer shoving turn for value when stacks are pretty committed. It'll be hard for him to fold anything he bets the turn with so it's good to deny equity/get value from the hands that will check/fold river.

Calling a 10BB raise with hands like J9o, J2s, 92s would make his range very wide and means he potentially has a whole lot of other crap like J3s, Q8o also. With so much junk he actually has a noticeably lower density of hands that beat you compared to a tighter range, and a much lower density of hands that crush you (sets). Note that even if he's limp-calling a "reasonable" range (there's no such thing, don't limp call), you're not beat that often. This flop+turn are very safe and you really only lose to J9s, 99, 22 from a tighter range.

It's not a problem to be stacking off overpairs every time on J925r type boards with these stacks. SPRs are typically so low due to huge raise sizes that losing with overpairs is often a cooler. Maybe you have a problem if you are stacking off vs. check-raises on dangerous boards or to heavy multi-way action but in general I wouldn't worry about it.
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-12-2021 , 10:15 AM
I would have only called the flop if I thought V was going to bet again on the turn. When such a safe card falls on the turn and V bets again, I'm happily jamming for value. If he has you bet, then reload. Folding is the wrong play here.

From your overall tone and demeanor, you need to be a lot less scared of losing money at the table.
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-12-2021 , 11:26 AM
You are over valuing over pairs (OP). Dan Harrington wrote years ago that AA wins lots of small pots but loses the few big pots. In this particular case, the stack to pot ratio is 3:1. It is going to be hard to get away from an OP in that situation.

However, I suspect the more likely scenario you run into is that you bet/bet/shove into a villain that doesn't fold and has a better hand. Unless you are playing in an extremely weak game, OP are good for 2 streets of value. Somewhere along the line, you'll want to check.

Your raise pf is also large. That is tempting when you have a big hand, but I doubt you would be raising 10 BB with J9s. If you raised less, you would have been less committed.
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-12-2021 , 04:23 PM
I’d recommend looking at your hand histories from a configuration pov.

In the example, is the MP caller closing the action, or somewhere in between? If closing, a hand like J9s is more likely to be included, whereas his calling range in between others should be tighter.

Similarly, with a hand like T8 he should not be betting into others OTF if there are other players between you and him.

In terms of calling or folding, let’s simplify and give him all flopped sets, though I would discount 22 somewhat, since many players will get scared of your resistance, worried about JJ.

Anyway, let’s say 9 combos. With 165 in the pot, and 45 to call, you are getting 3.7-1, which means you need to find < 3 combos of worse hands to make this call profitable. If we include 2 more of J9s, still 3 combos of worse make it profitable.
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-12-2021 , 05:30 PM
It depends, hand as stated is fine to stack off.

Lets say it goes 5bb raise, 3 callers, board is T62 rainbow, you c bet 10bb, SB raises to 35bb, you call, all fold and turn is a 3 he makes it 100bb with 250bb behind - I'd suggest folding KK/AA pretty fast without reads.

Generally it's OK to call 3 streets of 50% pot with TPTK/overpair on any "safe" run out. It's probably better to be the one betting if you can because the population makes more calling errors than betting errors. I think of these nutty one pair hands as good bluffcatchers for 3 streets of villain bets though as mentioned above if the SPR is small enough you should probably just rip it in before the river.
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-12-2021 , 07:41 PM
I think everyone had some very good points and perspective from their experience. Some of this comes from context of knowing who the opponent is and how he or she plays. Some Old Man Coffee types that bet out into a multiway field with the PFR still to act always have a very strong hand. The board you gave does not give very much in the way of donk betting, so generally leading into you is pretty strong. However, for the most part it goes against theory of checking to you in a traditional configuration.

I played limit hold em for 20 years before moving into NLHE. This very issue was something that I needed to figure out for myself. Honestly, most of what you are asking is experience. There is only 1 real two pair combination. It is generally much safer than a T 8 7 flop. There we can be against quite a few different 2 pair combos and pair + draws. You have to develop your own sense at the table. There are some guidelines to keep in mind, but you have to understand the situation you are in.

Multiway is much more difficult than Heads up. Depending on the board and the action, you might not give up much just folding on the flop with AA or KK, and other times, heads up, it is mandatory to call down as you whittle away your hands by strength to the river.

As others have said, sometimes you will get owned and others you have a guy overplaying a hand. The intangibles are things that you will develop as you play more.
I would review my hand histories, examine betting patterns and sizes and think about why you are betting or checking.

Years ago, we used to bet for value, or to bluff....then came blocker bets and now there are multiple reasons to bet..(range betting, ect.)

Realistically, we should bet when our range has an advantage over our opponents. If you think about this more often at your decision point, I think it will help you through some of the decisions.
Good Luck and Hope to hear more stories of improvement. ( I have liked both of your posts so far, which I read.)
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-12-2021 , 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
You are over valuing over pairs (OP). Dan Harrington wrote years ago that AA wins lots of small pots but loses the few big pots. In this particular case, the stack to pot ratio is 3:1. It is going to be hard to get away from an OP in that situation.

However, I suspect the more likely scenario you run into is that you bet/bet/shove into a villain that doesn't fold and has a better hand. Unless you are playing in an extremely weak game, OP are good for 2 streets of value. Somewhere along the line, you'll want to check.

Your raise pf is also large. That is tempting when you have a big hand, but I doubt you would be raising 10 BB with J9s. If you raised less, you would have been less committed.

I kind of disagree with this but only because I think we’re playing in very different games. I make a ton of money stacking off with over pairs for 100bb and less. I have played in games where your advice is likely correct however. Based on OP’s example, he is likely playing in my kind of game at least some of the time.
Learning to fold AA/KK, help Quote
06-13-2021 , 07:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22
I kind of disagree with this but only because I think we’re playing in very different games. I make a ton of money stacking off with over pairs for 100bb and less. I have played in games where your advice is likely correct however. Based on OP’s example, he is likely playing in my kind of game at least some of the time.
I agree it is game dependent. Judging from my nose and eyes, the recreational drug of choice is pot, not alcohol in my games.
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