1/3 NL, max buy $500, late night loose and gambly action table. Not a pro by any means, and still mostly a newbie rec to NL, but this is the juiciest game I've ever played in.

V1 (SB 445): Solid sLAG, usually tight but can be a touch on the gambly and loose side seemingly at random, but is solid in his reads and knows when and how to bluff. Still can show up with the weirdest hands. Best player at the table. Re-bought for the max after getting stacked with flopped top 2 against a flopped straight, and has since played a couple of hands. Main villain.

V2 (UTG 600): Not much of a read, seems solid, but also seems to be running good after sticking stacks in pre-flop.

Hero (UTG+2 900): Playing a little tighter than usual due to table dynamics. Table has seen me showing down premiums, hasn't been caught bluffing yet, and is generally being respected. V1 has played with me before and knows I'm capable of double and triple barreling.

V3 (HJ 600): Complete newbie to NL. Has seen him play limit before, seems nervous and completely out of his depth. Stuck 100BB in with a gutshot on the flop, got called and rivered the gutshot to double up.

V4 (CO 900): Weak TAG, playing fit or fold, never bluffs, pretty easy to read.

OTTH:
V2 raises to $15, Hero looks down at AQ and decides to flat to let V3 and V4 into the pot, folds to V3 who calls, V4 calls, folds to V1 in SB who calls, and BB folds.

Pot: $75 - 5 players to the Flop: Q53
V1 checks, V2 checks, Hero bets $45, V3 folds, V4 folds, V1 calls, V2 folds.

Pot: $165 - Heads up to the Turn: Q
V1 checks in SB, hero bets (? I had planned on checking back most turns, but felt compelled to bet for value when the Q hit) $85, V1 tanks and announces $185. Hero?

Don't see what alternative there could be to flat and get it in OTR. If he has a set, he has a set, I'm not folding this.

Edit: I guess if you think he's never bluffing the river then you should jam now, just in case he has a gutshot or something.

Obviously never folding. With a dry board and no real draws to be worried about, I like a call in position. We can easily get stacks in on the river, and being IP you don't have to worry about risking that the river checks through. Calling also keeps his weaker holdings and possible random spazz in the hand and affords him one more opportunity to bluff river.

With the action and this board, it feels like V has an inferior Qx or 55/33 almost always. I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up being coolered here, but your hand is just too strong to ever think about folding. Calling his turn raise keeps his entire range in the hand on the off chance that this is one of his random bluffs (though I think this is a terrible spot for V to choose to run a bluff).

Folding is criminal and raising might let him fold marginal Qs and any bluffs he may have. You're at the top of your range here and given description, this could be a wacky bluff or value with worse.

Gii otr, if he has a set, that's poker, wp.


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wow. a C/R on the turn for just 100 more? That is ultra valuey. And you are almost at the top of your range.

Hard to tell if he is repping just trip queens or a boat here. I think if he just has Qx, you can jam and get paid. But, as strong as he is playing this hand, he could already have a boat.

As played, You have position so I would just call and then see if you bink the river. If the river bricks, he will jam for his last 170 or so and you will have to call it. But against this V, you are too strong to fold.

I suck at deepstack.

I probably fold preflop. Solid guy raises UTG in loose action game; AQo doesn't fare too well against that. Of course we'll get ok IO inviting others along with weaker Ax, but we'll also be OOP, and it could get 3bet. And we're deep so the price is good. But I'm a nit like that and really like position in these games.

I think I'm ok with our flop bet.

I think I'd rather check back the turn. He's a solid player, is he really paying off with worse? I think I'd rather turn my hand into a bluffcatcher against a solid player, especially one who'll likely bluff / put in chips on the river after us weakly checking back the turn. Also the A might be a money card on the river (if he's on a 42 OESD). We also don't get put in super gross spots like this one for 150bbs.

ETA: Would this guy ever check/raise a Qx here? I see absolutely no reason at all for him to do that, so I don't see nearly as much Qx as everyone else.

GbutIsuckatdeepstack,sowhateverG

1. Incredible flop for you. Size higher ($55-$65).

2. NO! Bet for value again on most turns. V's will let you know if you are beaten and CR on the turn is generally not a bluff.

AP, flat (since V could have KQ or QJ here) and evaluate river.

I'll partially disagree with some of this.

1) Your idea of "incredible" is slightly different than mine. We have one pair deep. We're not exactly looking to build a huge pot (and a bigger flop bet does that).

2) Is betting the turn the only way to get value?

Gyouleantooverplayingmediocrehandsdeep,imo,althoug hIcannodoubtweaccussedoftheoppositeG

checking back the turn is absurdly bad

Right, cuz we're so often getting so much worse to call us for two more streets after we bet into 4 people on this flop.

GnotasurprisewedisagreeG

This is not even close to deepstack.

for most games, stacks of 900 would be considered deepstack play.

at the 1/3 games in Houston, there are routinely 5+ players with 2k stacks at the table.

was in a 1/3 game of round each (HE/PLO) and there were stacks of 8k, 11k, 6k, and 7k in a nine handed game. Saw a dude go broke 7 hands in a row after he would buy in for 300 before each hand.

To be in a deep stack game, you need to be deep enough to fire off three bluffs. You just can't do that in a 200BB game.

Well, I'm either folding or committed to flatting and calling a $200 bet into a $735 pot on the river at this point. The river going x/x is highly unlikely and this is my decision point. So (and I know this is not good theoretical thinking, but I'm posting this hand history to gain more perspective) it's more like calling a $385 all in at this point. How often is this a bluff (~130BB) at $1/$3?

I'm never folding this preflop to one raise at this table. I don't mind lighting money on fire by surrendering the $15 and folding preflop to significant 3-bet action if it came to that. There used to be a time when I would do this, but then you never get dealt playable hands often enough to fold AQo to a single standard 5x pre-flop raise at an action table.

1. True.
2. Agreed. Then this turn action is generally not a bluff. So we're beating Qx and losing to 55, 33, Q5, and Q3.

This is why I hate poker sometimes (and lately it's been super swingy). I want to get comfortable doing this without batting an eye and accepting the variance that comes alongwith it, in the knowledge that it is +EV long term. It's super hard to actually do when you haven't realized most of the +EV yet.

Anyway thank you for all your responses, and on to the results:

I flat the turn, thinking he has some KQ, QJ in his range. The river bricks out and he jams for $200 more. I one chip call, and he flips over Q5.

I find it difficult to play when people I read as "good solid players" show up with Q5o in this spot. I'm sure he's good enough to know that he's never going to be profitable playing Q5o always from the SB, and so in this specific instance he might have felt like getting out of line against the gambly moderately deep-stacked table. He's a good player, which is why I thought he could do this with KQ and QJ.

Is this a reason to begin 3-betting AQo pre-flop?

It's one of the reasons. You're far more likely to get heads up, and AQ should want to get heads up rather than 5way. In your initial post you talked about wanting bad opponents to come along, and that's not a good way to look at it. The vast majority of the time you're going to end up with either air or a one pair hand, and it's a lot easier to deal with that when you're heads up in position with the betting lead rather than in a 5 way pot in middle position without the lead.

The other reasons you'd want to 3b include:

a) You block hands like AA/QQ/AK and thus reduce the likelihood that UTG has a hand that has you in bad shape.

b) You want to have other stuff besides KK+ when you 3b an UTG raiser; if people think you're doing that, then some of them will decide to not give you action whenever you 3b your big pocket pairs.

c) A lot of players at this level don't play very well against the 3b. Many of them will call your 3bet because they "don't want to look run-overable" and then have no plan for post flop other than hoping they hit their hand.

d) Players donk less often in this spot, so you'll have a bit more control over the size of the pot postflop than usual.

It's funny, I was just going to make a post a few hours ago, before you posted results, that your reads are meaningless and your read on the main V sounded like you just took a bunch of random poker related words and smashed them together into a sentence.

In reality, you didn't have a read at all. You had a lol-live-read, which is something people think they have and can act on, whereas in reality you can't possibly have an actionable read because of a tiny sample size (it's the same reason that balancing is almost meaningless against constantly changing bad opponents)

It's certainly a reason to start 3! this particular player lighter than a typical low stakes game, because now you have at least a partial read on him. Remember, reads don't come from stereotyping how people dress or noticing that someone had a 50% vpip in 1 orbit.

Good actionable reads come from hands like these, where significant money goes in, showdown happens and we get to see their cards.

Sorry if any of this sounded harsh.

Well, if he has people overplaying their hands postflop (and in my opinion that's exactly what we did), maybe calling $14 preflop almost closing the action with ATC $445 deep ain't horrendous. Don't get me wrong, I still think it is, but it's horrendousness is offset a bit if his opponents are going to giftwrap stacks for him.

Again I'll ask the question: why in the world would a good player check/raise KQ/QJ here?

Also with regards to the preflop call and "not minding lighting $15 on fire". We didn't light $15 on fire, we lit $445 on fire.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'm probably folding AQo here too vs a solid EP raiser.