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03-14-2015 , 07:27 AM
I'm not in love with raising the turn and when an aggressive guy that cbets 99 %
of the time checks back the flop then come alive on the turn sometimes he could be slow playing a monster.
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03-14-2015 , 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
I'm not in love with raising the turn and when an aggressive guy that cbets 99 %
of the time checks back the flop then come alive on the turn sometimes he could be slow playing a monster.
In game thought raising turn was most +EV play. If I get folds % 50 I am printing money. Raise stops me from tough river decisions.

Bloated pots are tough to play. Almost always have tough decisions. Think raising was best chioce. Given my image at moment.

River bet, and preflop play. I think I made small mistakes.

Need to 4 bet (KQ just isn't in my 4 bet range)

River I need to check back. Value owning myself way to much there.
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03-14-2015 , 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
I'm not in love with raising the turn and when an aggressive guy that cbets 99 %
of the time checks back the flop then come alive on the turn sometimes he could be slow playing a monster.
V3 does not have a monster here. He just can't afford to check a monotone flop with the pot this big.

The only problem with a raise is that your line is obviously fos as well, so you open yourself up to rebluffs. The whale calling is a godsend.
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03-14-2015 , 11:20 AM
If your post edge is as you say, then flatting would be advised. This would include a bit of creative postflop play as well. You may also add some speech when you call for a nice effect too.
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03-14-2015 , 11:52 AM
I always cringe when I read someone has a huge post flop edge on the field. Most players wildly over rate their post flop skill.

The problem with calling is that with 3 players likely calling, someone is going to have a hand on the flop. If you assume that players have a hand about 1/3 of the time, the odds everyone missed is 30%. Pretty hard to out play someone when they have a hand and won't fold.

Therefore, I like a 4 bet under the circumstances. We'll either get it HU where can show our awesome post flop skills, everyone folds, or we fold to AA when it 5 bets.

As for the turn, either someone is taking a stab at the pot or has the flush. A tight fish that is underrolled for a game is rarely betting this. My guess is that it is -EV to call or raise this because he's going to have a flush a majority of the time. If you won, congrats.
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03-14-2015 , 12:23 PM
Calling pre is fine, though like I said, 4-bet is good too.

Checking flop is obviously good.

Turn, I think I'd call. You're turning your hand into a bluff by raising. Planning to Raise/fold vs. V3 on this board with your stack and his tendencies seems so bad. Also, you get blown off your equity to the nuts (non-flush gut shot card). You're also gonna plan to call a ton of rivers as a bluff catch vs. V3, so you can win more vs. airy hands.

Raising also eliminates your positional advantage, which is powerful here.

When the flop checks through, you bink your Q, and this guy bets the turn, I just go into call down mode and hold on tight - planning to call off ~75%+ of rivers.

That said, I'm surprised you're surprised that the station called your raise. You could definitely raise the turn with the goal of achieving exactly what happened - get plenty of value from the station whale and get other people to fold away equity.

Your river value bet is pretty perfect imo.
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03-14-2015 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko
River I need to check back. Value owning myself way to much there.
Disagree. You need to value bet this river. You said whale has called pot sized river bets and can't beat second pair hands with bad kickers.

Not value betting this river is criminal.

A guy who calls so wide just becomes a victim of combinatorics, of the very reason certain poker hand are harder to get than others - mathematically, he just can't have more combos of hands that beat you than you beat.

My only question is should we go $300-$450 instead of $200.

Given your read, probably.
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03-14-2015 , 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
Fascinating. My initial reaction is that it's pretty unlikely that V3 has a big diamond or a flush, as he would cbet the flop if he did.
My experience is that players in V3's spot often check in a scenario like this if they flop the nut flush.
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03-14-2015 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko
V1 (whale) limps utg +2, V2 raises to $15 (standard is 15-20), V3 3 bets to $55.

Hero in CO, looks down at KQss.
Hero?

Have big post flop edge on all players. V3 is likely 3 betting light to iso the whale and fish.
First think I do is look at V1 and V2. Is V1 calling? Is V2 unlikely to raise? If I think the answer is yes, I would consider calling the 3bet for the metagame reason of discouraging V3 from iso-ing. Some people think the correct way to do this is to 4bet light. I think you should do this some of the time, but flatting and forcing the iso-happy player into multi-way pots that he doesn't want to be in is also something you should do occasionally.
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03-14-2015 , 04:33 PM
On turn i call. Re-ev river.
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03-14-2015 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
I always cringe when I read someone has a huge post flop edge on the field. Most players wildly over rate their post flop skill.

The problem with calling is that with 3 players likely calling, someone is going to have a hand on the flop. If you assume that players have a hand about 1/3 of the time, the odds everyone missed is 30%. Pretty hard to out play someone when they have a hand and won't fold.

Therefore, I like a 4 bet under the circumstances. We'll either get it HU where can show our awesome post flop skills, everyone folds, or we fold to AA when it 5 bets.

As for the turn, either someone is taking a stab at the pot or has the flush. A tight fish that is underrolled for a game is rarely betting this. My guess is that it is -EV to call or raise this because he's going to have a flush a majority of the time. If you won, congrats.
I agree I prefer 4 betting. But it is close. In game, making fairly quick decision, I decide to flat. Mainly because yes I felt I had post flop edge.

Now by me saying I had an edge. Doesn't mean I am going to try and out play them. Just felt I would make fewer mistakes than they are. FWIW, alot of folks would have edge on these 3 villains.

Being a 3 bet pot 4 ways. Doesn't leave much room to outplay anyone. But it does magnify mistakes.

Just so happened the hand played out where my truly only easy decision is on flop. I would be folding every non K or Q turn.

Turn was bet by aggro villain. Not scared money villain. If scared money bets, then I am never raising. Contemplate folding.
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03-14-2015 , 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10

Therefore, I like a 4 bet under the circumstances. We'll either get it HU where can show our awesome post flop skills, everyone folds, or we fold to AA when it 5 bets..
What sizing?

I didn't 4 bet. Because I didn't like 3x it in this spot. What I came up with on paper is some like $105. Just didn't come to me quick enough in game.
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03-14-2015 , 05:07 PM
Willyoman.
Raise turn to protect my equity. Allows us to get to showdown cheaper than call turn/call river.

Obviously. I am repping realley light. Like QQ only. Was just hoping he was poor hand reader and to scared to fire his stack as a rebluff.

The river value bet. I just don't know. Guy is impossible to range. I think river value bet and preflop decision are super close.
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03-14-2015 , 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AintNoLimit
On turn i call. Re-ev river.
Allowing all diamonds what is basically a free card?

Raising gives us fold equity also.

Love to hear your reasoning
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