You are reading OP incorrect.

V is main V, not SB.

SB is OMC.

If OMC leads, I am just calling.

lol,,,, you seem to have caught my Old Timer's Disease. You can try to edit your post....but gotcha!

*Spew fully aware that V opens the betting after two checks.....including OMC.

Can we just call this player a NIT? A true OMC is not calling $60 OOP to set mine in this spot.

Why did you discount TT?

What about the other 2 players in the hand?

I think you are cherry picking ranges. I think a generic V calls with at least 50% of 88,99,AK.

table dynamics, km. OMCs seem to think IO relates to inboard/outboard boat motors option......except when the payoff can be larger than 100BB.

And it was me that first defined TT as iffy.

And ****n o w a y *** he calls OOP AK to a CBet.

We have very different definitition then. I think an OMC probably folds even TT,JJ, AK. They set mine only if it is cheap.

OK, np

You may be closer to correct than I.

Personally I really don't care what ranges we hypothesize for these opponents - I'm just never cbetting this flop MW in a 3bet pot with KQo given the history. I'm not doing it because it would make me actually throw up on the table and that would be too much of tell for my opponents to fail to pick up on.

If the 3bet got it headsup vs raiser, great I'm cbetting flop. You guys advocating cbet here in this exact spot - crazy lunatics the lot of you

Huh??? 3bet light is a thing. It may take it down pre. It may win the pot with a cbet bluff post. It's pretty handy in the meta game. KQo is a reasonable 3bet light hand as it's near the bottom of a typical calling range. Obviously, it's a 3b/f typically , it is just KQo after all.

Was it a good plan at the time for OP? How often should it be used in LLSNL? Good questions. Seems like a reasonable spot though.

Guilty as charged, Rage

As played, the dealer looks at you and says "It's your turn to play, sir."

And you......

As far as the cbet goes, a 3bet light generally reps a premium hand and it would be standard to continue the story of a big pair. SB and HJ don't close the action, so they may find a fold with a ton of their range. If you have a read that one of them is never folding, then sure, abort the typical continuation plan for this board.

AP, I don't understand the turn check behind at all.

This villain isn't raise/folding meaningful equity pre.

That's true about 3-betting with any two cards.

I'm 3-betting a merged range in this spot, and KQo isn't in my merged range here. I think KQo a) has *too little* equity to get meaningful value / dominate 3-bet calling ranges, and b) has *too much* equity vs. villain's range to want to 3-bet/fold rather than call w/position.

But that's just me.

Doesn´t 3 betting increase our chances of winning the pot UI?

If we flat, flop whiffs us, V C bets, are you planning to float/bluff raise/something else frequently?

CC and play fitorfold post flop with a hand with meh IO doesn´t seem like a winning strategy to me. At least AJ has showdown value UI.

Edit: Oops. Posted before I saw your above post.

If that's true, perhaps we are isolating a dominated range.

I'm not trying to argue OMG best 3bet spot ever, but hero has a dynamic going, position, and a nice hand, so it's a reasonable option while you've argued that it basically shouldn't be considered. Obviously, I disagree.

Again, that argument suggests that we can print money 3betting ATC and cbet flop and watch villain fold.

The idea behind flatting KQo is we are in position and our hand dominates our opponents range. That gives us IO when we flop top pair vs him. Also, our hand has TOO much value to simply 3bet bluff, which we could if we looked down at K7s or A8o. These hands do not play well post flop multiway or heads up, so we can put those into our 3bet bluff range to get HU vs this villain, cbet flop and print money.

This hand has too much value postflop in a SRP to 3bet bluff, and it also really sucks when villain 4bets us with things we were dominating. Villain has shown the capability to 4bet so I would hate to throw away KQo IP vs a fish.

Where if I 3bet him with 85s I wouldn't be as upset

Sorry, as kookiemonster has pointed out to me my last post was kind of shutting out all reasoned debate and thereby not very constructive. He is right, annoyingly

My point with this hand is that we can assign all sorts of ranges to the 3 different villains going to the flop but, due to the aggro history between hero and main villain we just aren't able to settle on amy particular set of ranges with a lot of confidence.

If the SB and HJ are paying attention they know hero and V in CO have a thing going on and are playing much looser than normal. Therefore, if they are paying attention, their ranges for defending the flop will be wider too. In that situation cbetting is going to be less successful than we would normally expect from the preflop action, the flop and what we know about SB and HJ.

However, if SB and HJ aren't paying attention or aren't capable of adjusting then maybe we can expect cbet to be as successful as normal.

I'm saying that, since we can't know what's going on in game we shouldn't overthink it in game and should just take the safest, cheapest route out of the hand before committing a lot of chips on a potentially dangerous bluff.

Kookie is right in that there is now, away from the table, something to be gained by discussing the particular ranges each villain might have and doing some maths to gain a better understanding of this situation specifically and poker in general.

FWIW I think HJ is pretty fishy with his limp/call-3! and has a flop range of something along the lines of: 99-22 ATs-A2s QJs-54s KJs-64s.

SB is likely a lot tighter at something like: QQ-99 AK AQs. Maybe as tight as KK QQ JJ though if he is tight and not adjusting to the table dynamic.

Main villain I tend to think is still somewhat tilted and probably isn't folding a lot of what he raised with, though apparently that is now tighter than earlier. Maybe he goes to the flop with 22+ AJ+ A2s+ KQ and some suited Broadway. However, his tendancy to 4! earlier may not have totally gone away so maybe we should be discounting 88+ AT+ KJ+ from his calling range here? I just don't know.

Furthermore I think the problems encountered with the flop cbet decision are entirely predictable preflop given the table dynamic. Therefore the 3bet preflop was probably a slight mistake and flatting would have been preferable.

Ha yeah. I think KQo has enough equity vs villain's range to flat. We do have high and connected cards. Obviously not a powerhouse, but we do get to make hands, and we get to play in position to boot, which enhances post-flop equity. In other words, we can do even better than our pre-flop hot/cold equity (which I think is decent) suggests. And we can win chips without making a hand.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

And I'm merging rather than polarizing because I don't think villain raise/folds.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to 3-bet with weak hands in this spot.

I'm checking the flop and feeling crap about it.

Turn comes K I'm not feeling terrific about getting value out of worse but feel I have to at least try.

As played on the river I'm shoving over V's bet hoping to get paid by KX AQ or some disbelieving pocket pair.

Most live players don´t open/fold to reasonably sized 3 bets. If our hand had 50% (maybe lower?) equity vs his range but we have the initiative, position, skill advantage it can become a quite profitable situation.

Initiative and c betting is a real advantage unless we are taking counter measures.

No?

I suppose the other argument for 3betting KQo here is that it is a hand that performs well headsup vs a wide range but not so well vs multiple wide ranges in a MW pot. With HJ limping in there is a significant chance this pot goes 5 way if we just flat.

If CO is still tilted and doesn't raise/fold much and calls most of our 3bets then 3bet is a good move.

However, once you throw in the possibility he hasn't stopped his wild 4betting then our 3bet becomes bad, IMO.

How is KQ a 3bet bluff? V is never folding better than KQ pre-flop.

If V 4bets with worse than us, great, he earned the pot.

If V 4bets often with worse than KQ, do you see it as an argument to not 3bet more with KQ? Plus if we know V 4bets really wide, so what if we lose this hand?

Makes no sense.

If you know V 4bets light, you would rather 3bet with 85s than KQo? Would you make the same argument for 72o?

V has actually never 4bet once this session. He went through a phase where he was 3betting almost every other hand but that has stopped. And this is kinda dumb that I forgot to mention in the OP but V had called everytime he's been 3! Prior to this hand.

This + just because he called off the rest of his stack earlier (only $200 v well over $500 in this hand) doesn't mean he 4bets light. OP said that V was a station. V is calling ALL 3bets and even though he might have tightened up a bit doesn't mean he isn't opening many hands we have dominated. We are dominated by three hands that V might flat with pre AK, AQ and QQ and it isn't unreasonable for him to 4bet with 2 of those given our history. So yes throwing away our hand which has some value if we get 4betoff of it but really isn't that bad if we get 4bet off of it by a hand that likely has us in deep shot anyways. It might actually prevent us from losing much more later in the hand.

As played, I like the check on the flop because the small blinds range seems far too tight to try to get to fold. He likely has 88+, AK and maybe AQs. The only hands we love him having are AK and AQ because they will almost surely fold to a flop cbet with two players behind. BUT we have both of these hands blocked so doesn't seem like a good spot unless we plan to barrel. Yes this is a very dynamic board that will likely have a big card by the river but barreling seems optimistic. We also don't want to get jammed on by the primary V because his stack is almost perfect depending on the sizing of our cbet.

Turn
Normally I prefer a check in this spot but small blind has already checked and he is the one we are most worried about having us dominated (ak... And if he flats or x/r we can be pretty confident he has us beat... We check back river or fold to a decent bet on the river unimproved). Again, Vs stationy ways make me want to try to get as much value from this hand as possible. Smallish turn bet like $130 and hope to get another $190 otr if he calls. He's calling at least one bet with all of his pps assuming the SB and hj fold.

River
As played, we basically never have to worry about the SBor HJ showing up with a hand so we can almost disregard them. V definitely threw out a blocking/small value bet that is rarely beating us. The only question is how much to raise. Hard to argue that $225 or $250 isn't right but since V is a station can we get $350 or ship it and hopefully make him think it's a bluff based on our history. I like $350 because it think it gets called a little less but we make enough when we do get called to make up for the greater number of folds.

Yes, with this info, we can def 3-bet for value.