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Old 02-10-2014, 11:15 AM   #26
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Re: KQhh SB

C/F river. I don't think he would turn JJ- into a bluff given your image and call on dry flop.

Pre - I think it is close, obviously being oop vs. a good opponent is a major challenge even if we have 45-55% equity vs. his entire range. If we call, think we need to be ready to C/F turn (if he bet). If we are not prepared to fold TP2K along the way, better to fold pre imo.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:15 AM   #27
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by Running Uphill View Post
Read up to here.

So if your hand plays well vs his range from any position and there is tilted dead money in the pot also...why the F are you not 3b this pre!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This allows you to define villains range way easier and makes post flop a breeze compared to the way you played it (which is not horrible mind you just not optimal). It costs waaaaaaaaaaay less if you 3b and get 4b and fold than when he has KK on this flop and you check call 2 streets and are completely guessing when he fires a brick river.


Plus....if his opening range is as light as you say it is you win $22 a ton uncontested...which is HUUUUUUUuUGE for 1/2. Do that 10 times a session and you have made a buyin without even seeing a flop!! Printing money basically. Not to mention the times your 3b gets flat and you win with a cbet on the flop.
Not trying to blow V2 out of the hand, and I fully expect to be flatted or raised when I 3b. The only part of his range we define is the top of his range when he 4b's me, but even that he may elect to flat depending on what he thinks V2 will do. I really don't want to turn KQs into a bluff right here, not with someone who is in the hand and may be tilting.

The pot is never going uncontested and if it was as easy as printing money by 3b'ing I would have.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:28 AM   #28
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Re: KQhh SB

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Not trying to blow V2 out of the hand, and I fully expect to be flatted or raised when I 3b. The only part of his range we define is the top of his range when he 4b's me, but even that he may elect to flat depending on what he thinks V2 will do. I really don't want to turn KQs into a bluff right here, not with someone who is in the hand and may be tilting.

The pot is never going uncontested and if it was as easy as printing money by 3b'ing I would have.
Ok so your making more of a case for my line then I did. This isn't turning your hand into a bluff, this is helping to define v1 range. While he may flay a 3b in a hu pot it's unlikely he flats anything less than AA of the hands that have us dominated for the sheer fact that having a tilted 3rd party in the hand will drop his equity with QQ KK AK. Having a villain hand cuffed in this spot makes me want to 3b that much more.

Who said V2 was going to be shut out if we 3b here? I've seen many many many tilted players say fk it let's see a flop to a squeeze when the original raiser folds. So now we have a hand that is a fav if not dominating vs a tilted fk it range. So our 3b goes from a definition raise to a value raise.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:40 AM   #29
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Re: KQhh SB

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Ok so your making more of a case for my line then I did. This isn't turning your hand into a bluff, this is helping to define v1 range. While he may flay a 3b in a hu pot it's unlikely he flats anything less than AA of the hands that have us dominated for the sheer fact that having a tilted 3rd party in the hand will drop his equity with QQ KK AK. Having a villain hand cuffed in this spot makes me want to 3b that much more.

Who said V2 was going to be shut out if we 3b here? I've seen many many many tilted players say fk it let's see a flop to a squeeze when the original raiser folds. So now we have a hand that is a fav if not dominating vs a tilted fk it range. So our 3b goes from a definition raise to a value raise.
No, I don't think so. I think your main plan is to 3b and collect dead money... I don't ever see that happening. Post flop it's not going to be as easy as cbet'ing and taking it down. They will both call a cbet with just about any piece they get (pairs, draws, maybe even a float). Of course in this particular case we get a great board that 3b'ing pre and cbet'ing post makes sense, but that is ROT, we can't judge what we should have done based on what flopped (ldo).

To me it seems like 3b'ing pre, cbet'ing post all sounds great on paper, but I think this is the wrong game/spot/hand/position to do it in. Maybe I am wrong though. I just think we burn money when we take that line in this game. (Basically we are in a zero FE game)
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:49 AM   #30
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Re: KQhh SB

Check fold seems ok. Problem with betting is it would be for the purpose of a blocker bet. Problem is I don't see worse ever calling or better ever folding. So I say check fold or maybe check call depending on how spewy V 1 is. But I mostlikely check fold.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:50 AM   #31
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
Tighter is in quotation marks for a reason and I should have been more clear... His opening range UTG isn't QQ+, AK. It is much wider. My hand should play well against his range in any position he opens.










V raises UTG, and is not a complete maniactard. He must have more AQ AK in his range than QT or QJ or KJ right? So how does our hand play well against his range?

Calling here with a 2 card hand (suitedness isnt going to play here often at all so its really KQo), and just trying to hit the flop is -EV IMO. I agree with what Vernon said, except that IF villains range is reasonable big card hands wide + some med pairs, then i would 3 bet it even if smallish to 25 just to take over the initiative. You can even run all over AQ and AK postflop with your hand if we both miss (likely). But calling with a hand, hitting the best (10% ) flop that you can, and then having to check it down at best cannot be a good plan. Quite honestly, whenever a player puts passive dead money in the pot optimistically hoping for a good flop, it is -EV unless very large multiway pot is involved.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:56 AM   #32
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Re: KQhh SB

I fully expect to be about a coin flip against V1's range and way ahead of V2's range.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:00 PM   #33
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
No, I don't think so. I think your main plan is to 3b and collect dead money... I don't ever see that happening. Post flop it's not going to be as easy as cbet'ing and taking it down. They will both call a cbet with just about any piece they get (pairs, draws, maybe even a float). Of course in this particular case we get a great board that 3b'ing pre and cbet'ing post makes sense, but that is ROT, we can't judge what we should have done based on what flopped (ldo).

To me it seems like 3b'ing pre, cbet'ing post all sounds great on paper, but I think this is the wrong game/spot/hand/position to do it in. Maybe I am wrong though. I just think we burn money when we take that line in this game. (Basically we are in a zero FE game)
Possibly, game dynamics are hard to translate into a post and you know much more about the situation than any of us posting here.

Personally I am a fan of only playing KQ in position, which I 3b relentlessly for value. It's just an extremely difficult hand to play oop without any additional fold equity. But if you feel that V1 range is wide enough to justify a call the. Why wouldn't we 3b? Yes the initial reason we 3b or make any bet at all in this game us to collect dead money...you collect dead money then hello hourly.

So we got called by a vill who had a very wide opening range cool I like my hand in that position. Flop comes J63r 1h we happily c bet bc we have the initiative, it's tough for vill to connect with the flop plus we have 2 overs + tons of back door equity we are able double barrel with. So he calls 35 total pre with 67ss, you c bet 45 on turn he calls, Tc turn you jam for 120 into 160... You think he will call it off there? It's pretty hard for him to call it off with anything less than JT (besides QQ+).

So we got called by a vill who had a very wide opening range cool I like my hand in that position. Flop comes 689dd, we check fold. I'm checking to raise when I have JJ+ in this spot so check folding KQ or AQ or even AK on a flop like this is unexploitable bc your checking for pot control with big pairs but it's tough to be beat on the flop but there's a lot of bleh turns so we pound away with a check raise and say nh nh when we are beat and say Ty Ty when they get it in with 78 or TT and we stack them.

Again this is from my play book and goes with how my personal style of play is, this line could help or it could hinder you.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:00 PM   #34
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Re: KQhh SB

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Calling here with a 2 card hand (suitedness isnt going to play here often at all so its really KQo), and just trying to hit the flop is -EV IMO. I agree with what Vernon said, except that IF villains range is reasonable big card hands wide + some med pairs, then i would 3 bet it even if smallish to 25 just to take over the initiative. You can even run all over AQ and AK postflop with your hand if we both miss (likely). But calling with a hand, hitting the best (10% ) flop that you can, and then having to check it down at best cannot be a good plan. Quite honestly, whenever a player puts passive dead money in the pot optimistically hoping for a good flop, it is -EV unless very large multiway pot is involved.
Plan was to c/r draws depending on how action went - FD's and OESD's -, c/c pairs OTF and play from there, c/f whiffs, and obviously if I flop gin I figure out how to proceed during the hand. You are correct that my plan was to never figure out how to outplay him pre or post. In these games it is rarely the plan.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:02 PM   #35
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
I fully expect to be about a coin flip against V1's range and way ahead of V2's range.
Then why are you so opposed to 3b in a coin flip situation with the assistance of fold equity?!?!?!?!?!?

/rant
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:03 PM   #36
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by Running Uphill View Post
Possibly, game dynamics are hard to translate into a post and you know much more about the situation than any of us posting here.

Personally I am a fan of only playing KQ in position, which I 3b relentlessly for value. It's just an extremely difficult hand to play oop without any additional fold equity. But if you feel that V1 range is wide enough to justify a call the. Why wouldn't we 3b? Yes the initial reason we 3b or make any bet at all in this game us to collect dead money...you collect dead money then hello hourly.

So we got called by a vill who had a very wide opening range cool I like my hand in that position. Flop comes J63r 1h we happily c bet bc we have the initiative, it's tough for vill to connect with the flop plus we have 2 overs + tons of back door equity we are able double barrel with. So he calls 35 total pre with 67ss, you c bet 45 on turn he calls, Tc turn you jam for 120 into 160... You think he will call it off there? It's pretty hard for him to call it off with anything less than JT (besides QQ+).

So we got called by a vill who had a very wide opening range cool I like my hand in that position. Flop comes 689dd, we check fold. I'm checking to raise when I have JJ+ in this spot so check folding KQ or AQ or even AK on a flop like this is unexploitable bc your checking for pot control with big pairs but it's tough to be beat on the flop but there's a lot of bleh turns so we pound away with a check raise and say nh nh when we are beat and say Ty Ty when they get it in with 78 or TT and we stack them.

Again this is from my play book and goes with how my personal style of play is, this line could help or it could hinder you.

Just my 2 cents
Definitely appreciate the posts and your thoughts. Very detailed.

FWIW here is the hand he tilted V2 with...

V1 just sits down and buys in for 50bb

V2 raises UTG to 5bb
V1 calls 5bb OTB
Rando in the SB shoves
V2 reshoves
V1 calls it off with T9cc
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:04 PM   #37
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by AintNoLimit View Post
V raises UTG, and is not a complete maniactard. He must have more AQ AK in his range than QT or QJ or KJ right? So how does our hand play well against his range?

Calling here with a 2 card hand (suitedness isnt going to play here often at all so its really KQo), and just trying to hit the flop is -EV IMO. I agree with what Vernon said, except that IF villains range is reasonable big card hands wide + some med pairs, then i would 3 bet it even if smallish to 25 just to take over the initiative. You can even run all over AQ and AK postflop with your hand if we both miss (likely). But calling with a hand, hitting the best (10% ) flop that you can, and then having to check it down at best cannot be a good plan. Quite honestly, whenever a player puts passive dead money in the pot optimistically hoping for a good flop, it is -EV unless very large multiway pot is involved.
Whew someone agrees with me
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:04 PM   #38
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If you bet you are only getting hands that beat you to call and you are never getting better hands to fold imo.

I x/f river.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:53 PM   #39
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Re: KQhh SB

For me, pre is closer due to the fish in the pot. Can you play this hand without losing 50BB+ to V1 when we hit top pair and he bets 3 streets? Then ok, call.

I c/f river also.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:29 PM   #40
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Re: KQhh SB

APD - would you have 3-bet or flatted pre if you were on the button?
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:31 PM   #41
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
Plan was to c/r draws depending on how action went - FD's and OESD's -, c/c pairs OTF and play from there, c/f whiffs, and obviously if I flop gin I figure out how to proceed during the hand. You are correct that my plan was to never figure out how to outplay him pre or post. In these games it is rarely the plan.







CR draws isnt a good plan. Whiff too much on turn and then?

c/c pairs leaves you in really precarious turn and river spots when he bets. It also is a make the least when win, and lose the most when loses strategy much of the time.

c/f when miss is the majority of the time.

I cant find a good reciprocal edge in playing the hand this way at all. IOW, show how this is supposed to really show a nice profit overall PLUS show how you are playing the hand in any other fashion than most everyone at the table would play it regardless of skill. That will be the true test.

I rarely will be a caller, OOP, with technically a trouble hand, with intentions of hitting flop and c/c down (poss folding river whatever). I just cannot see how that can paper out to be a skilled way to play the hand (if we play at all).
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:35 PM   #42
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
I fully expect to be about a coin flip against V1's range and way ahead of V2's range.





Which is exactly why i say to take the initiative away from V1 and take control so that when everyone misses the flop (or has marginals on the flop) we win. We also win bigger when we hit and determine it is best. OBV we must figure out when we hit and are behind as well. But now we have options, and options is where we make our money. good decisions = profit, and bad will make spew.

The flatting route gives us very few options really.

Its tricky when 100bb i know. Skillful betsizing postflop will get it done though.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:40 PM   #43
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Re: KQhh SB

Fwiw, I am not arguing against 3b'ing, but I am trying to make a case for flatting pre. So don't take it as I am snubbing my nose at anyone

@ANL - I would of bombed c/r'd the flop. Wasn't going to be tiny.

@Fatman- I've already been beaten down by the forum one time for 3b'ing KQs IP, so no, I would have not 3b pre OTB.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:42 PM   #44
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Re: KQhh SB

How many players are playing in this game?
I'd 3-bet this hand given the dead money and our image. V2 is scared money so will fold out hands IP with good equity. We have blockers to the top of V1's range and suspect him of opening wider than most. Getting two folds is optimal with our hand, but getting called isn't terrible.

Also I wouldn't c/r the river. While it's a line you might take with sets or AQ, you'll also take it with hands that would like to check it down but cannot c/c river so decide to bluff, which include QX/PP's/SC's that hit a pair. Trying to fold out an A otr isn't going to happen as much as you like.

I would probably c/c the river, unless we have reads that V is unlikely to take a b/c/b bluff line/be capable of turning SD value hands into bluffs in this spot. V will have picked up gutters that he checks back OTT and bluffs on this river.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:43 PM   #45
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Re: KQhh SB

You know, a common theme I notice in my Hh's that deal with being severely OOP, I am a nit. This can't be the biggest leak in the world though, AMIRITE?
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:57 PM   #46
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Re: KQhh SB

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Fwiw, I am not arguing against 3b'ing, but I am trying to make a case for flatting pre. So don't take it as I am snubbing my nose at anyone

@ANL - I would of bombed c/r'd the flop. Wasn't going to be tiny.

@Fatman- I've already been beaten down by the forum one time for 3b'ing KQs IP, so no, I would have not 3b pre OTB.






APD, It is apparent that you like the flat. OK, so do make the case for flatting and show how it should be a fine play. Im not squabbling, but merely getting everyone to put on the table their plans and see which come up short. This will ultimately give you the best answer for your issue.

c/bombing a flush draw is not a good plan. It folds all his air and gets called by V! if he has a real hand. I mean I just would never do that myself and thus i say so here.

OK, if u are a self admitted nit, then ok, flatting here is going to show the same profit/loss that most at this table would also receive from this hand played the flatting way. I just dont see it as profitable or just barely profitable at best if V1 cbets air and sometimes gets owned by having KJ etc.

There is so much more you can do here, is why i hate for you to miss out on all those options and profitability. If nothing else, flat the flop and play creatively on many flops---thus still offering you the possiblity of winning the pot when missing.

Im just trying to show several options you have and then you must work to incorporate some of these options into your game so that you can increase your overall skill and thus profit.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:10 PM   #47
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Re: KQhh SB

I 3bet pre against the described V1 a lot to 1.) take back the initiative if called, and 2.) possibly iso V2. I don't particularly like calling with KQs in that spot as we will often have to give a free card on the turn as the c/c on the flop is the correct play which makes it harder to play the turn when it doesn't change the board.

River is tough because of your image. I would c/f here a lot, but I can see a c/c here because your hand looks like a weak Q/pair, you don't have many hands the A helped in your range that would check the river, and this villain is capable of making a bet here without really understanding why he is doing it/the purpose.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:11 PM   #48
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Turn seems like a clear lead for value...
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:11 PM   #49
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Lol at folding pre
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:16 PM   #50
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Re: KQhh SB

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Originally Posted by AcePlayerDeluxe View Post
You know, a common theme I notice in my Hh's that deal with being severely OOP, I am a nit. This can't be the biggest leak in the world though, AMIRITE?
It isn't as long as you are adjusting for it correctly on a micro level within your player pool (ie bluff catching more against subset X of your players, bluffing more against subset Y, and folding against aggression more against subset Z.)
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