Hey guys. So I was just about ready to leave and i get KK in early position.

Villain 1 is very tight. Havent seen him play many hands at all. Villain 2 is a loose donk in his mid 40s flirting with this guys wife at the table. Effective stacks are 180(i buy in for 100 because i am trying to build a bankroll and i play a 50bb strategy until i can get more chips). Thoughts on buying in for 200? I am a 21 year old with a part time job at a hardware store. I have about 2000 in a jar that i have made from the tables over the past year.

Hero raises to 10. Villain 1 calls. Villain 2 raises to 30.

I don't want to commit myself by making a raise to 75-100. I dont want to call and allow Villain 1 to enter the pot.

So i shove for about 170 more(a larger than usually bet for me) Villain 1 folds. Villain 2 tanks and says something about "this is my favorite hand" and eventually folds. I like my play because I put him to a tough decision. And i pick up the pot risking 170 to win 52? Is this standard/profitable?

If you're a winning player, you should be buying in for the full amount; especially since you have a 2K bankroll and a job.

Yeah, the stack sizes are a little awkward. Shoving can look bluffy...or at least like AK. So, you might get called by QQ, JJ, or AK.

The other option would be to re-raise to like $85ish and then shove most flops.

Why not?

Yea that was my main problem. The awkward stack sizes. Yea i guess i should be buying in deeper but that is only 10 buy ins? And i would only bring 1 or 2 buy ins and then im 1 cooler away from driving an hour and 15 min home. Ive tilted off my bankroll many times in my history of driving 4 hours to an 18+ casino.

Im way more likely to shove here online than live because i usually 4 table 6 max so i see big pairs like literally 12 times as often. In no way should that affect my decisions on the hand because i still have to make +EV decisions regardless. It just makes me question whether its the right move or not.

With $2K bankroll you can start buying in for $200 but you will have to be ready to back down if you have some bad luck.

As for this specific hand, the shove is +EV and the wider the villain will call the higher the profit. It isn't going to be the highest EV though. In this situation the smallish raise to $80 and risking V1 coming along is generally the highest EV and highest variance. Effective stacks are so short that pricing villains out really doesn't matter.

I like raising to $70-$75 here .... you'll get rid of V1, lock everyone else out, and offer decent odds to V2 to call a range you destroy.

Thanks i see what you guys are saying. So if i make a raise to 75-80 am i shoving pretty much all flops? What about an Ace high flop?

$70. Then shut your eyes and shove every flop. This is a very basic spot. The shove is actually pretty bad.

I can't comment in the brm question. I was buying in for $300 wih $800 in my roll but I knew I was very +EV in my game and wasn't broke
If I lost it. You could buy in full to start and back off if needed. But you have to be able to get it in good. You made the high variance shove in a misguided effort to avoid a tough flop. You'll make way more in this spot raising and then shoving flops.

I would likely check an Ace high flop and evaluate the Turn. But most likely you're not going to see an Ace so yeah, you can raise to $75+ and then jam almost all flops with confidence.

The preflop jam isn't terrible, but very unlikely to get looked up by a weaker hand.

Should I not be satisfied picking up the pot here with my stack size? Would i only be satisfied picking up the pot here with a bluff then because KK is so strong?

Also I feel like shoving is lower variance because KK is such a preflop favorite. Wouldnt it be higher variance to see a flop? I appreciate the advice.

Edit: Its actually 150 on top of his bet because i forget to include the 20 when he raised to 30.

Cmon man you should only be satisfied to double up here with KK and especially on your last hand for the night . I understand though the psychology. I bet you did n't want to see any other hand than AA on our last orbit for the night right? Especially when you have almost won one BI for the night
It reminds me a few weeks ago when on the last hand of the night (6am on a Tuesday) I looked and I saw AA on my straddle :-) Luckilly I doubled up against a sticky flush draw but to be honest I thought , ok now nobody will believe when I re raise the last hand on the straddle and I will be in for a bad beat and a 30min drive back home

Anyway onto the hand:

Reraise around 80 and if called put your chips in before the flop hits out of turn then drive back home with at least 2 BIs profit. If he calls and you win well done, if you lose c'est la vie. drive home and have a beer.


That's a nice opportunity though for all of us to share experiences on the last orbit of the night. When you are waiting for the blinds to cash out and head home. Maybe I ll start a thread on this :-)

I don't mind the shove as part of a strategy where you also shove AK.
You can mix some preflop shoves and some smaller 4bets. Flat call sucks because you're out of position, and as you mention the middle player can complicate matters.

You've made several classic errors that lots of players make due to fear. The first is that you ignored Sklansky's Theory of Poker: Whenever a player makes a play that they wouldn't have done if they knew your hand, you win. Whenever you make a play that you wouldn't have made if you could see everyone else cards, you lose. If someone had TT for example, your 4bet chases them out allowing them to play correctly. If the flop comes below a T high, he's going to stack off because of the small SPR. You lost all that extra money. At the same time, the only hand that is going to call your shove is AA. If you knew he had AA, you'd never shove. In essence, you won the minimum and lost the maximum. Losing the maximum is a good way to increase your variance, not reduce it.

The second mistake is that you decided you're "pot committed" if you 4 bet. If you read the current COTM in this forum, you'll learn there is no such thing a pot commitment in cash games. If you raise and get 5 bet, you know his range is AA and AA only. You can fold and save some money. In poker, the money you save spends the same as the money you earn. At 1/2, that $100 you save is 5-10 hours of successful play.

The third mistake is booking the win before you leave the table. If you are ever at a table where your mind goes towards, "I don't want to risk this money," get up and leave immediately. Even you are the button next, let alone waiting until the blinds. You're playing your C game the second you think it.

Lots of good advice in this thread, I'd take a strong look at it instead of justifying your play.

Thanks venice. You're right there is a lot of good advice and you just added to it. Not trying to justify my play. Just trying to learn and improve and give the reasons WHY I did what i did. The stack size just felt awkward to me.

You're totally right about the pot commitment thing. I kind of knew that deep down but wasn't able to apply it. I guess that also means if we see a flop and an ace comes out i may be able to get away from it, depending on a lot of variables. Just in the same way i should be able to get away from it preflop if he 5 bets me. But if this donk 5 bet me and i have the stack size that i do im probably gonna move all in. Player dependent for sure.

Based on this, pop to 70 to isolate. Shove any non-ace high flop and bluffcatch any ace high flops (shove turn if flop is checked through).

Grunch

Shoving after the $30 raise is way too much. You want calls from weaker hands. By shoving you give villains an easy decision with almost every hand they have. I think a smaller raise will give your opponents more tough decisions.

After reading the OP again it looks to me like you shoved because of fear. I think that's a really bad reason to shove. It seems like you were afraid of someone drawing out on you (especially with an ace) so you raised them out to keep them from getting there, and because you were happy to win what's there.

This is common reasoning I see in live games, and a lot of live players are wrong when they think about the game that way.

Also buy in for whatever makes you feel comfortable. If you don't feel ready to buy in for the max, then buy in shorter.

A smallish 4 bet may be optimal but I think you should just call the 30 pre if you are trying to avoid an awkward spot and still You will have no problem getting it all in by the river. Also a 4 bet looks so strong to a 1/2 player IMO his range that calls 70-80 calls 170. There is no perfect way to play this game though.
About the Bankroll I would say don't buy in for 200 poker has a lot of variance and 10 buy ins can go fast. Try buying in for 150 for a while before jumping to 200.

Effective stacks are like 170 in a 1/2 game. No way a 5bet is AA and AA only. That is just plain wrong.

Also, a shove here will most definitely not be called by AA only. Sure, some players fold their queens in this spot, but most players will certainly call with QQ and AK, and often with TT and JJ as well.