Wasn't that interesting. I think I barreled flop and turn w 2nd pair on a QhTh2 2 board....and made a bad c/c on a blank river, thinking he might play a busted draw that way. I was really leaning fold but had been drinking and said, "**** it."



Sometimes, I'm a payoff monkey.

Yeah I think I remember him betting like $160 into $175ish or something around there? Seemed like a boat, but I didn't see the rest of the hand play out. Also that German guy with the rabbit ears was pretty funny, seen him there all week. Wasn't sure if he was local or on vacation but all the dealers seemed to know his name.

Dominic it was good playing with you also. I enjoyed watching how you played. The quad deuces hand was lucky. It was one of those hands where I either have nothing or everything. I thought the bigger bet would look like a missed draw. I have to say the Aria has been getting tougher over the last couple of years to play at. Now that I see all the posters who were at my table I see why..lol

Great points. The point about spr with v1 is a good one however 25 pre with one limper and only the bb behind me would have been very large at this table, but worth considering. If played again I would definitely check flop to control pot a bit when against a good player. However this can have a down side as good players tend to bluff and it is hard to define their hands when I am not controlling the action. A seat change for sure was going to happen if I stayed at the table. Life is so much easier in position. Even consistently working on having a plan for every street before I act I still run into the problem of periodically not having one (actually more than periodically tbh). I look forward to the day when this it is at the level of unconscious competence and I do not have to work at it. Over the 4 days I was in Vegas I was at so many tables where fish would just pay off for 3 streets of value it was ridiculous. My lack of thinking about who was in this hand gave me what I deserved.

Thanks for all the great posts.

Eh, I knew I was beat...you didn't look like the type to make a big river bluff...but you had been plying so snug I figured it was a perfect spot for you to run a bluff...you played the hand well - it's tough to get value rom quads when the other person doesn't have a boat.

****in; hell, I call too damn much lol.

Aria is still quite good...but you ned to table select some....some nights, I move around from table to table until I'm sure I'm at a table full of tourists/fish. That's why I had to get off of that table, even with seats 9, 10...and the Red Rock Regular in seat 4. Nice guy, but jesus, he likes to spew.

Thats really interesting that you would read me like that. I actually do use my image regularly against good thinking players. I usually play pretty snug my first few orbits and then that with my physical image I get mad respect. The hands people put me on when they fold...I only wish I ran as good as they imagine.

Dunno why people are saying to check this flop. It would have to be slme crazy dynamics to influence me to check over betting.


So did wj ever say what he had?

Can't give away all my secrets for free...

Call turn.

What rivers would you call a shove on? Which would you fold on? C/c river or shove yourself? Just curious.

As played I'd probably c/c small and fold to a shove OTR except K and maybe 2 or 3.

Call turn, evaluate river? Lol. I think there's a good amount of rivers worth calling down here.

Wow, since V is a very good capable player; he could have a wider range of hands than the typical villain since he is capable of bluff raising and easily putting in a second barrel(Like 90% of live players at 1/3 are unable to do this and hence why this makes an interesting spot). So the pot is $180 after your call on the flop, and V could have 22 and 33. But, he is capable of having 45 and a few random combos of high cards/bluffs such as JT that can pick up equity on the turn . I'm not sure how often V would do that, but it's definitely possible. I still feel that in position V would just tend to re-evaluate a hand like 66-77 IP instead of raise, so it's weighted more to that range above. Have you been c-betting a lot of flops up to this point? If so, he's more likely to make a move on you. At this point after calling the flop raise, I'm sure V puts you on an overpair.


On the turn, I believe for V to make this bet he either picked up equity on the turn or has a set here. I mean, it's not really a scare card for an overpair. So, if you call turn I would call river expect on a spade or an A or a 6 river if V shoves. After reading this: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...value-1424047/ I'm definitely calling turn and river. I'm probably way off on my analysis tho.

I have been c-betting but not a lot of hands and usually in position. I would just about always c-bet this flop if missed. However, I had raised very few hands oop. V could have read the c-bet as weak based on sizing. However, my hand is defined to him after I call flop raise.

****ing epic post Vernon. Pure gold, and i certainly agree on the last part- consider check this ultra dry board with this SPR against a good thinking aggressive opponent.

Are we not losing tons of value by checking? I suppose there aren't a ton of hands we can get 2+ streets from, and the more streets of value we attempt, the greater likelihood of getting played back at.

Flop cbet of 30 seems fine. Assuming rake puts flop pot @ 40. 25 does look a tad weak.

I'm just wondering what we expect to happen when we check flop.

I dont think we lose tons of value compared to how an aggressive skilled experienced opponent can possibly put us under intense pressure on such boards.

Of course normally, and against 95 percent of the live low stakes player pool i would C-bet this flop for pure value- but an exeption when we face one of the rare circumstances of an truly skilled opponent. An opponent who not only very possibly will put you on an overpair, but also will raise and potenially fire multiple barrells into you on dry boards like this.

Against such villains i would much rather check the flop and possibly getting two streets of value later on, and the pot size dont become out of control as it could if we face a big flop raise and 2 more barrells at worst.

Advice in this thread is starting to get very bad

Please feel free to provide solid arguments to back up your views, instead of serving us with meaningless totally uninteresting oneliners.

I already did

Heheh thats true

Question is poorly posed, let's say you are bluff raising a dry board and villain flats and you bet the turn because lol you bluff raised the flop and he calls again.

Otr would you consider shipping to be a +ev play or -ev play?

I'd have bet folded the flop because you don't seem to be an fps monkey and if he's cbetting wide you'd be much better off flatting and taking the pot away on a later street

You posted an argument earlier in the thread, but it's not "solid":

If the bolded is true, then a good player should VERY OFTEN be showing up with a value hand that beats an overpair here (which, as you said and I agree, is only a set of twos or threes), since raising the flop means he'll get your stack in the middle if you have TT+. This is especially true after the turn bet: if your argument is correct, then according to you, Hero's flop call is supposed to be a signal that his stack is in play. So the turn bet is clearly saying, "I can beat your stack-off range."

Self-defeating arguments are not solid.

And by the way, "good player" doesn't necessarily mean one who balances his range so that KK is supposed to be good here sometimes.

The optimal line here is to call the flop raise and then check/evaluate (leaning towards c/f) the turn. We don't have to commit to the hand on the flop.

When we raise from the SB with our tight image, wj94 knows that our range is premiums. We aren't raising here with 88/AJ. So our range is something like AQ; TT+.

The flop is very dry, we c-bet, and wj94 raises us. Let's just consider how he perceives our range when we call his raise. We're folding all of our non-pair hands. So our continuing range on the flop is TT+.

The turn is a blank, and wj94 makes a healthy bet. Why would he bluff $120 into our TT+ range? Of course, if he thinks that we think that he's never bluffing us here, then he can level us into folding an overpair. Is it really standard to fold QQ+ here? Does he expect us to fold it very often?

These are the questions we need to be addressing.

Actually I think the real issue here is the one venice pointed out in his post: we're not playing against a donk, but it's possible Villain thinks he is.

And if he thinks he is, we cannot be stacking off here, since that's what he'd be expecting a donk to do.