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Old 03-05-2017, 03:05 AM   #1
DonkvFish
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KK multiway , connected wet board

New at table , zero reads, 2nd hand at the table :/
5/5 $500 buyin

KcKh
Mp limps
I raise $25 hj
Cutoff calls ,button sb and mp

9h 7h 6c pot $125
Sb leads $65, everyone calls

Turn 4c pot $450
Sb leads $150
Mp folds
Hero ? I have cutoff and button behind me still


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Old 03-05-2017, 04:36 AM   #2
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Fold.
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:35 AM   #3
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Raise or fold flop
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:32 PM   #4
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

I'm OK with the flop call, think we need to fold this turn though now, can't see us being good here very often.
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:38 PM   #5
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Raise or fold flop
Are you Raise/Call or Raise/fold?

It's a tough spot. I see ppl take lines like this with 1010-QQ pretty often.
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:43 PM   #6
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Raising flop is tremendously bad
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Old 03-05-2017, 04:43 PM   #7
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Fold flop
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Old 03-05-2017, 04:52 PM   #8
willperkins
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

I could see maybe calling the flop bet, but I would give up on the turn, Dangerous board with this many players still in hand and me only one pair
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Old 03-05-2017, 05:40 PM   #9
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Unless you know that sb is terrible he should be super strong betting flop and turn here into all these players. I'd range him on sets, two pair, flopped straight... more often than 10s Jacks and wild 9x hands.
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Old 03-05-2017, 06:53 PM   #10
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Raising flop is tremendously bad
Calling the flop just to fold the turn is tremendously bad. Raise or fold the flop depending on the players.
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Old 03-07-2017, 03:20 AM   #11
DonkvFish
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Originally Posted by Tiltyjoker View Post
Are you Raise/Call or Raise/fold?

It's a tough spot. I see ppl take lines like this with 1010-QQ pretty often.
This is what I figured could be in his range due to his bet sizing of half pot with so many people in the flop, which is why I called to evaluate the turn.

Now he bets $150 into a $450 pot with 4 of us left to act on an even MORE draw heavy board. This made me range him alot more heavily towards TT-QQ as I figured he would shove his made hands or at least bet around $200- 250 range. But even if I had a dead read on him on that range, I still have cutoff and button behind me.

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Unless you know that sb is terrible he should be super strong betting flop and turn here into all these players. I'd range him on sets, two pair, flopped straight... more often than 10s Jacks and wild 9x hands.
Yea thats what I would normally range someone completely readless, the only thing I could go on was bet sizing. If he bet around $80+ into the $125 pot or so, I would of folded the flop..So I decided to see the turn.
I would figure someone with a made hand would bet larger on the flop to protect his hand from all the draws.

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Calling the flop just to fold the turn is tremendously bad. Raise or fold the flop depending on the players.
Your saying depending on the players, but I know zero about these players.

Its possible calling the flop here is bad. But how can you justify Raise or fold?

He is leading into 4 players, mp smooth calls ( who can possibly be trapping) and then on top of which I still have Button and SB yet to act, on such a nasty board....when I say all that, its making me want to just fold the flop lol.

If im raising, you are raise/calling off?
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Old 03-07-2017, 05:00 AM   #12
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

great reads guys! (seriously. dont just write a conclusion, write your reasoning.)

That hand went about as poorly as possible, you have one pair on a wet board, in a 5 aay pot, with someone betting into you, and a call. I agree the decision is raise or fold. This hand will only get worse from here for you, so calling is just a donation. because youre folding to any more action. If you ship, you get your money in good against FD/SDs, and bad against 2 pair or sets. I wouldnt be too worried about MP, because he wouldnt just call with a set or 2 pair, so basically this would be read dependent on SB.

Donk bets tend to be weak made hands, so the blind read here would be that SB has a draw or a 9x. A better player may have bet out a set or 2 pair simply because of how wet the board is, but the bet size would be much larger, probably $100+.

I think the move here is to ship, but its pretty marginal. there is no evidence that would suggest SB or MP have a made hand better than yours, and although you run the risk of the guys behind you snapping you off, thats the downside of getting squeezed. However, theres no shame in folding and giving up your $25 instead of stacking off in a marginal situation.
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Old 03-07-2017, 06:38 AM   #13
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Donk betting into the PFR is usually a weak hand or a draw. Considering the number of hands that could be on the flop, I don't think I'm folding.

Turn completes nothing. Again, he's setting his price to continue and keeping it cheap.

Again, I don't think I fold.
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:03 PM   #14
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

I think you ship it here. SB is donk betting very small on both streets. Does he really do that with a set or two pair? Wouldn't he go much bigger? I think he's heavily weighted towards draws, as are the other players when they just call.

As @ibelieveyouoweme$80K points out, the turn doesn't really complete anything (are they really getting here with 53?), so if you were ahead before, you're still ahead. Now it's time to charge the draws. Shove.

I also don't hate a call on the turn. The price is great, and I think it's unlikely that anyone behind you will raise with worse than KK into so many players, so you can fold to a raise without fear of being bluffed off your hand. You can see it as a draw to a brick on the river.

So in my view shove>call>fold. Folding seems bad getting this price.

Others have suggested a flop shove. I disagree. You have two players left to act on a board that hits preflop callers' ranges. On the turn you have more information. On the flop, before everyone acts, you're too likely to be up against two pair or better.
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:36 PM   #15
mark "twang"
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

This spot is AIDS. I'm folding the flop and feeling damn good about it. Once the SB donks $65 to the PF raiser in a 5-way $125 pot and then gets a call from MP, there is a very good chance that stacks will be going in on this board texture and with all of the dead money in the pot. Our hand is not good enough to play for stacks and we have no fold equity if we shove. Fold the flop. As played, anything else other than folding the turn is suicide.
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:50 PM   #16
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k View Post
Donk betting into the PFR is usually a weak hand or a draw. Considering the number of hands that could be on the flop, I don't think I'm folding.

Turn completes nothing. Again, he's setting his price to continue and keeping it cheap.

Again, I don't think I fold.
agree.

Ship or call turn?

SPR is already <1. Feels gross but I think I ship the turn.
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Old 03-07-2017, 02:01 PM   #17
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Ship it! There are plenty of worse hands that can call you.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:30 PM   #18
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Make it like 200$ to go on the flop, fold to a raise. Anyone behind you that sticks around is probably ahead. Need to evaluate the action and the turn card.

As played I probably fold the turn and wait for a better spot. Gonna be sick when SB flips over 10 10 and everyone else mucks their missed draws.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:42 PM   #19
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

Probably should fold or raise flop with this many people in the hand, a lot of terrible turn cards for you. On the turn I'm shoving since small blind's bet sizing hasn't really been indicative of a strong hand and the players behind us all had a chance to raise to protect a strong hand, but they didn't. We also got one of the best turn cards we could hope for.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:54 PM   #20
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Probably should fold or raise flop with this many people in the hand, a lot of terrible turn cards for you. On the turn I'm shoving since small blind's bet sizing hasn't really been indicative of a strong hand and the players behind us all had a chance to raise to protect a strong hand, but they didn't. We also got one of the best turn cards we could hope for.
yeah that's actually a very good point about the people behind. If I have 2 pair or a set or the flopped nut straight, I would 100% raise it up in late position. As played, JAM IT BABY YEAH!
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:14 PM   #21
Nice_Guy_Eddie
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

I don't think you can fold. The turn is basically a blank. If you're calling the flop, you should gii here. You equity is basically the same against straights, overpairs, two pair, sets, and combo draws. If you're not gii on the turn then you should fold the flop.

I think the flop call is good. Your hand is too good to fold to a 1/2 PSB and a call. The stack size is a little awkward to shove. I think you can call and evaluate the action behind you. You can get away if the action blows up.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:29 AM   #22
ibelieveyouoweme$80k
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Originally Posted by mark "twang" View Post
This spot is AIDS. I'm folding the flop and feeling damn good about it. Once the SB donks $65 to the PF raiser in a 5-way $125 pot and then gets a call from MP, there is a very good chance that stacks will be going in on this board texture and with all of the dead money in the pot. Our hand is not good enough to play for stacks and we have no fold equity if we shove. Fold the flop. As played, anything else other than folding the turn is suicide.
Nit it up much?
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:31 AM   #23
Redskins 47
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k View Post
Donk betting into the PFR is usually a weak hand or a draw. Considering the number of hands that could be on the flop, I don't think I'm folding.

Turn completes nothing. Again, he's setting his price to continue and keeping it cheap.

Again, I don't think I fold.
There's merit to this for sure but I still lean towards folding with that many players calling behind.
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:08 AM   #24
MikeStarr
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
Raising flop is tremendously bad
The way this hand has progressed is why raising the flop is NOT tremendously bad. The turn card really didnt hurt us at all and people still want to fold the turn. Calling the flop only to fold now what could easily be the best hand in a pretty big pot is one of the biggest mistakes you can make in poker.

Raising the flop prevents that from happening. I stand by my either fold or raise flop advice.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:27 AM   #25
mark "twang"
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Re: KK multiway , connected wet board

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Nit it up much?
Yep, which is why I make money and why you lose your whole stack.
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