you are completely missing the point. You do not know anything about what the first two players have. They are going to check their strong hands to the pre-flop raiser. They will also check their draws. It is only after you bet and one other calls in between then it goes back around to them. Then and only then will they show the true strength of their hands. In your case it just happened to be the last two had the big flush draw and the two pair. But the first position could have had a set or better two pair and have easily checked it expecting someone else to bet. You have to bet something in order to find out who is drawing and who really has a hand. But no need to bet big in a 4-way pot to find out you are behind. A small bet will accomplish the same thing. If two call and two fold, you can be more confident you still have the best hand and bet bigger on the turn.

As far as big vs small pots that is highly dependent on your stack sizes. But pots grow exponentially. A river bet will usually be 2-4 times the turn bet. Lets say 5 call a 10 dollar pre flop bet so pot is now 50 dollars. You bet half pot on the flop and get two calls. The pot is now 125. You bet 65 on the turn and get one call. The pot is now 255. If you bet half pot on the river you are betting around 125. This is 5 times your flop bet. In a 1/2 game, this is a big pot. Do not expect anyone to call this river bet with only top pair hands. If they do, you are playing in a very profitable game. You may get called all the way down with a one pair hand if it was heads up from the flop. But too easy for someone to have hit two pair or a set in a multi way pot. So the value of your over-pair goes way down if 5 people see the flop.

Also multi-way pots grow quicker than heads up because you are getting two or three calls. This can make it hard to bet people off their draw on the turn. Lets say you bet pot on the flop and get three calls. Now the pot is 250 and you will have to bet 150 or 200 to make the good draws fold. When you do that someone with a set or two pair who was slow playing you will pounce and re raise you to five hundred. This is where starting stacks come into play. If you only have 150, you can afford to gamble and get it all in on the turn. But if you are deep, you have to control the pot size. You would rather find out who has a strong hand on the flop with a small bet rather than find out on the turn or river after you have committed a larger bet to the pot.

some of the things I am explaining to you will become more relevant as you play for larger stakes against stronger opponents. They will slow play their strong hands more often. They are not as worried about loosing to a draw with a small bet as they are winning a big river bet when the draw misses. They will stack you for all your chips if you play the way you suggest. Yes the weaker players will usually show their strength and let you get off your hand as what happened in your example. But you are sometimes learning bad habits that you get away with only because you are playing in a soft game. Had I been sitting at your table, I would have min raised you with my two pair and made the first two fold and gotten you and the draw to put in another 25 each. Then you would have to bet first. I would then bet 2/3 pot if you checked or re-raised you if you bet. You won't always have all weak players at your table. It only takes one smart player to figure out how to exploit your bad play. Just saying learn to play small pots with one pair hands and you are less likely to go broke. The real key to winning the most in poker is not betting so big that the bad hands fold, but rather betting small enough that the bad hands call, yet large enough to give the draws incorrect odds.

I think this is a 100% check on the flop. I'm shocked at all the people advocating cbet.

Generally when we're out of position as PFR we want to be checking alot anyway. This is 4-handed pot and one of the worst boards possible for our range, so we should favor checking even more.

The better you understand the drawing odds, the better you can size your bets. Most draws have 4 (inside straight), 6 (1 pair - such as TJ on a T-high board), 8 (open ended straight), or 9 outs (flush draw). Of course there can be stronger combination draws with overcards and straight and flush giving some hands as many as fifteen outs - but 15 outs with 2 cards to come has a 53% chance of improving. So you will likely not get them to fold to a pot-sized bet on the flop. Against those strong draws you should prefer to give them and you a free card to see if they miss. Their chances of hitting are cut in half on the turn, to only 26 percent. So a pot-sized bet will often get even the strongest draws to fold on the turn. If you size your bet to give the 9-out flush draw bad odds, then you should want them to call. They will only hit their flush 9 times out of 45 or 1 out of 5 times. A third pot bet size will give them only 3:1 odds. It is a mistake to bet full pot to force them to fold. You are loosing money when you do that. Remember you make money by getting your opponents to make a mistake. If you bet so much that they fold, you are forcing them to play correctly against you. Also, on those rare occasions that you run into a stronger hand such as two pair, a set, or pocket aces, your pot-sized bet will be a mistake. You do not want to make a pot sized bet into a stronger hand and you don't want to make a pot sized bet into a weaker hand that only has five or six outs to beat you. Both plays are equally bad. So smaller bets are often better and will allow you to disguise your drawing hands as stronger hands as well.

I have no problem checking the flop especially if you feel confident one of the last two players will bet behind you. My only worry is the first two checked to you and if you check and it goes check-check behind, then the first position will often fire out a large bet on the turn to steal the pot. That will not happen as often in weak games but will in stronger games. Then you are trapped in the middle. In this situation you often just have to fold because you don't want to call a pot-sized turn bet in middle position with two still to act behind. If it gets checked around, the early position player may over-value their top pair hand and make a big bet. By betting small on the flop you tend to block them from doing this. But in small stakes weak games, you can often let it check around on the flop.

we're OOP on 3 players not 2.

Sorry my mistake. Yes I agree that makes it much more favorable to check. If I were first to act, I would check 100% of the time on this flop against 4 calls. I was thinking we were third to act. I have been reading and replying to too many threads to keep them all straight.

Is this our first orbit at the table?

yep, that tends to be a common strategy. That doesnt mean we insta-shutdown with KK.

Now this tends to be a really common strategy, all the more reason to bet with KK.

You could say that of any player at any time. We cant play poker by assuming someone might have a set and then checking based upon that assumption without any action to go on whatsoever.

You should never be betting to find out information. You should go with the information you already have and then adjust based upon their reaction. The information we have, while limited, is not useless. They called preflop, it's live, and it's low stakes, plus any reads hero might have if he's been at the table long enough. Their range to continue on a board like this are any single pair, any flush draw, any gutshot. This is enough to justify a "standard" bet of 50-75% pot.


We dont have to bet the river if it seems like everything missed, this is why you might want to size up on the flop/turn to extract as much value as you can while they're drawing, not to "play it safe in case they hit".


Sure we can get 3 streets with really small bet sizes, but we're giving favorable odds to get outdrawn while we're at it. I'd rather get 2 streets with a PSB than 3 streets at 50%, especially given the risk of being outdrawn if we invite them in.

I'm not trying to make people fold when I have KK. I want them to call, I just want it to be a mistake when they do.

Not sure I can say mush more on this subject. Clearly you were behind on this particular flop against 4 opponents. In this precise example your bet was a mistake. KK pre-flop is the second best hand, so betting pre-flop is rarely if ever a mistake. But after the flop, you will be behind in a certain percentage of the time. The more opponents who see a flop, the more likely it will be that one of them has you beat. It is as simple as that.

In one of my earlier posts I suggested you would be out flopped 20% of the time against a player with a small pair and two other players with any two unpaired cards. My math was off slightly in that example as I doubled the percent of the two pair hands. But I also calculated for only three opponents. In your example you are up against four opponents. Lets do the math correct this time. Against a small pair and three other non-paired hands, you will be behind to a set 12.25% of the time and to any two pair 2.25 percent for each player. That would be 6.75 + 12.25 = 19%. If your up against two small pairs and two un-paired hands, the percent goes up to 24.5 + 4.5 = 29%. So you are still ahead the majority of the time. But you do not have to make a big bet to learn you are behind and you don't want to find out you are behind on the river where the bet sizing will generally be much bigger.

Many plyers would advocate checking this around on the flop. I would often concur with that opinion. But if you do that many players will get a free draw which is not desirable. Also, many players with two pair and a set will also check to try and trap you. It all depends on their relative position. The first to act may slow play a strong hand expecting someone else to bet, however the last to act cannot justify checking a strong made hand on this draw heavy board. You may want to read some books on capping an opponents range.

It often takes just one person to show interest in the hand by making a small bet to open the flood gates and start a frenzy of call-raise-re-raise. You do not have to make a big bet to see this happen. I have seen it hundreds of times. But if it checks all the way around, the first position player who was trying to slow play their strong hand never had a chance to check-raise. That can cause problems. Sometimes the draw comes in on the turn and now the strong hand gets scared to bet first and decide it is better to just check-call. Others figure there must not be anyone with a strong draw as they would most likely have bet the flop, so they decide it is safe to check again and continue to trap. Point is you end up learning nothing about the strength of your hand or others by letting it check around. And contrary to whatever books you have been reading, information gathering is always a part of betting. But it should not usually be the primary reason for betting. In this case, the primary reason for betting is because you are likely ahead now and you want to charge lesser hands to draw to beat you. You would also like to narrow the field and perhaps squeeze out some of the middle position hands that may have some equity but they do not wish to call a bet with more action behind them. For all these reasons, a bet makes sense.

However, each time you get called, you need to start thinking the caller is likely folding those hands that cannot beat top pair with top kicker. If they are still calling, they must have something. On this board, there are many lesser hands that will continue to call a bet with a draw or a pair and a draw. If this was heads up on the flop, you could easily bet strong on all three streets provided all the draws miss. But in a multi-way pot this is generally a big mistake as you may be behind from the start.

I wish some others would chime in here and weigh in. I think you need to hear it from more people than just me. You should go back and look. At least a few others have said things like this is a clear check on the flop. I am simply trying to give more detailed analysis and say I disagree with checking but I also disagree with betting large. A large bet just makes your hand face up. In which case all the draws should fold and only those with two pair or better should call. And, that is the last thing you want to happen. The stronger hands are always going to be calling you. You want to make sure enough of the weak hands continue to call you too. As I explained earlier, a 1/3 pot size bet is adequate to make it a profitable bet against even a strong flush draw.

Sorry man, I just dont agree with ever "betting to see where you're at". I feel like you underestimate just how loose live games are and seem to think the only hands that will call larger bets are hands that beat you. Even though we got 1 player to go allin with a flush draw. Do you play a lot of live? Unlike online where the more players shipping it the more likely one of them has the nuts, in live player the more players shipping it = the more players on a draw. I'll see 3 way allins with 2 flush draws vs a straight draw every night. The very fact 4 villains called preflop kinda exemplifies the fact their ranges are not very good and nothing to be scared about.

Checking flop with KK? Betting 1/3 pot just so you can comfortably fold to a raise? Nah fam, that aint me.

^ I feel like I need to edit my suggestion of "the more the merrier". It is certainly true both live and online that if for instance 4 people get it allin on the flop one of them certainly has a set or close to it a majority of the time and I wouldnt be getting it in with a mere overpair. However it's the other 3 who happily went along for the ride that motivate me to generally play pretty aggressively even in multiway pots.

I have been playing professionally as my only source of income for 6 years now. I am quite aware how bad some players and tables can be. But do not make the mistake that all tables and players will be that bad. You will just have to get stacked off a few times to learn your lesson. Good luck to you.

guys doesnt this boad hit villains' ane super hard? like tehre will be ton of AT and Jq typo hands, ubt a **** ton of K9 and arent we scared of two pair and sets? feel likebetting 1/3 pot but c/c river tuner and river. any turn card we see is gonna be terrible unless its a K

We raise our premium pocket pair preflop, get a lot of callers and a low flop.
Seems to be a pretty standard spot with a whole lot of complicated comments.

Given how wide people call pre and otf, just bet for value and go from there. It´s not complicated yet, pretty good spot.
Further action?

100 percent? Not even close. Not to a bunch of people who will all fold to a 10$ open half the time.

There are so many non King turn cards that are going to look terrible, and this checking through and any mid non board pairing card coming up is going to make us hate life. Cbetting and seeing where we are at, while charging draws has got to be correct at least greater than 0% of the time.

Cbetting doesn't make our turn decision any easier. It inflates the pot and puts us in a position where there are very few good turn cards and we'll be going up against strong ranges while being OOP.

I think playing this flop as a range check is probably close to optimal and gives us a simple strategy. Part of the reason we check KK here is to protect our range since we have so many check/folds on this flop. In a vacuum, betting it small won't be bad, but the check plays into a well balanced approach.

I have a saved PIO sim which has similar inputs to this hand.

Inputs:
OOP range: GTO LJ range
IP range: GTO BTN call range vs LJ open
Flop: 865
Pot: 7bb
Effective Stacks: 100bb.


I gave OOP a 1/3 and 2/3rds sizing on the flop. IP gets to bet 2/3 if it checks to him.

On this flop, PIO is checking 96.5% of it's range as the OOP player. KK is only getting bet 4% of the time.

Given that the hand in question is 5-handed and we're OOP on 3 of them, this has to be a 100% check.

I have no major complaints about checking the flop. But if it checks around and the turn and river are low cards, completes the flush, or straight, or is an Ace, we may face a fairly large bet on the river. If we check the flop and any scare cards come, do we want to call a pot-sized or 2/3rds pot sized bet on the turn or river when there will still be two players left to act after us? Once we check, someone with top pair may over-value their hand and make a big turn bet, thinking we have AK and missed the flop. Are we planning on calling or folding to such a bet from early position?

Bottom line is if we check the flop we are basically giving up on a hand that still tends to be ahead of most opponents. This is a scary board for our opponents as much as it is for us. We can actually use this fact to our advantage. The early position player or players may have checked a strong hand to the pre-flop bettor. For this reason, the late position players still have to be worried that the early position player could raise if they call with a draw or marginal pair. If we open and they just call with weak hands, they are just asking the early position player to raise whether they have a strong hand or not. Furthermore, if the late position player has a strong hand they will not want to give a free card to four opponents. This forces them to play their stronger hands more aggressively on this flop.

For all of these reasons, a small bet is probably better than a check. We can likely fold out some of the late position players who may have a weak pair or draw and gain pot equity as well as position on the early position player who has not shown any strength in the hand. That is a good outcome. If the late position player or players call, they are unlikely to have a strong made hand which beats us. We learn a lot about their hand strength by squeezing them on the flop. Also, if they call and a face card comes on the turn, we can likely continue with another medium sized bet on the turn.

If you are going to give up on KK just because there are 4 opponents in this hand and hope to see a free show-down, then you will never be a successful player. What if you had bet a small or middle pair and hit your set on this flop? would you be checking that hand as well? Your opponents have to be worried you have a set or two pair. If you are only 3-betting pre-flop with large pairs and never betting on a scary flop like this, then you are going to be easy to play against and exploit.