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Old 09-17-2014, 09:23 AM   #1
BaconMaker
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KK ip against super LAG

1/3 500$ max.

Hero BB, Been playing for a few hours in the morning with the all nighters, winning stacks off drunks who value own themselves. Stack to 900$ from 300$. Aggressive image in this room, but tighter today. The drunks are gone and the nitty regs have started to move in.

V: 40s Asian super LAG just sat down but have a long history with him, very competent player, but high variance style, has donated me about 1000$ in the last 2 weeks because he bluffs too much. Sitting on my right in the SB. 300$

Hand: Two limpers in MP to V who makes it 8$ from the SB, I 3! to 25$ with KK. V calls. It's heads up to the flop.

Flop: Ts4h5s

V checks to me I bet 55$. If I don't bet, he will barrel any turn, he is capable of running multi street bluffs, but he seems tighter and quieter than normal today.
He just smooth calls.

Turn: Ad

V insta shoves.

Hero?? This is just as likely a semi bluff shove with a spade draw or straight draw as it is Ax. Did I play too face up?
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:35 AM   #2
WittyName26
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Fold turn seems best. He could easily just have sets/AT/Axss/any AK or AQ that peeled flop. I would c-bet smaller on flop, no need to just pot it, 35-45 is fine imo.
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:13 AM   #3
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaconMaker View Post
V checks to me I bet 55$. If I don't bet, he will barrel any turn, he is capable of running multi street bluffs, but he seems tighter and quieter than normal today.
He just smooth calls.
Betting to prevent a lag from bluffing when we know that he will bluff a very wide range is not a good reason to bet.
In fact it's some what the opposite, esp if we have a strong hand, or if us betting will force him to give up some hands that he would bluff with later.

As played, flop bet is good if you think that he will call with 1p type hands. We don't want him to fold out a lot of his range just because we are scared of his ability to bluff. But in gneral it's too big and it's only going to get called by better hands.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:01 PM   #4
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Well, he doesn't seem to be too concerned about the possibility you're on AA or AK. Maybe he knows something about your playing style that I don't, but it seems to me your line is consistent with a premium of some kind, and the only way he can be reasonably sure you aren't on an ace is via card removal; ie, there's one on the board, and one in his hand. I think this shove is him hoping you are on a hand you can't get away from.

Alternatively, he may just be nuts. So it's read dependent. He doesn't seem nuts, he's approaching you cautiously here. I think he's paying attention.

Good news is, I think you forced him to play his hand face up. Bad news is, your hand probably looked kind of face up to him, too. I'm assuming you bet the flop a little harder than you usually do? Maybe that gave villain a bit more info than necessary?

I think his plan was to bomb the spade if it came out OTT, or OTF if you check behind on the turn. Which, if I'm right, would have been a call. But not here. I'll bet he as AsKx or AsQx most of the time.

Last edited by AbqDave; 09-17-2014 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:13 PM   #5
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

I think the big flop bet is pretty good if you think it won't affect his calling range... but versus some maniacs I play, a bet this big would fold out their mid pocket pairs.

God I hate these spots. If you have a "long history" with V, don't you have any reads on what he might be overbet shoving with?

Maniacs I've played with who overbet pot can do this to "seem bluffy" and get you to call with worse... or they have done this with pair+draw+foldequity. Almost never air.

However what I'm confused about is that he opted to donk instead of check/raise. That makes me think he didn't want to see a free card and is betting for protection. That would imply a big pair or two pair combo, and all you beat is Tx.

Many spade draws have been removed with the Ts and 5s out there, but all the combos of As have you crushed.

I'd probably short circuit and fold here.

Last edited by HH2010; 09-17-2014 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:42 PM   #6
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Smells like some sort of Ax spade draw, maybe with a wheel card in there?

Probably just fold turn and let him walk with it.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:48 PM   #7
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Fold turn. Villain could have any combo of hands of 2 pair A10, A4, A5, 45 or sets. Villain likely hopes you cbet the flop with air and hit an ace on the turn and can't get off your hand.

Even if villain floated with an ace, it is still ahead and we are drawing to two outs.
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Old 09-17-2014, 01:51 PM   #8
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

AP, I probably fold. I'm guessing he has like AJss or AQss.
Your only really beating a flush draw after the turn. I'd wait for a better spot.
I'd have a hard time calling all in with just 2nd best pair.

Preflop since hes an Asian LAG, I probably raise a bit more than $25, maybe $35 $40.
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:36 PM   #9
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

In your history with him do you 3! hands other than AK JJ+?
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Old 09-17-2014, 03:26 PM   #10
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

I would expect a super lag who bluffs too much to be raising all sets, AJss+, A2ss, A3ss and sometimes A4ss on the flop. I would want to know specific hand histories with villian before thinking about making this call, although it does seem really bluffy to me. Would he really shove Ax (does he float Ax for a psb oop?i really doubt it) here thinking you could call with JJ+ or is he trying to get you to fold those hands? I would expect villian to be check/shoving most of his value range here and he has little FE if he check shoves the turn.

Last edited by riffy; 09-17-2014 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 04:17 PM   #11
Cheers4Booze
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

His PFR-sizing seems super transparent to me. What does your history with V indicate?

Quote:
very competent player
It doesn't seem indicative of this.

In my experience, a LAG making a small raise OOP is usually a speculative holding such as a small pp 55-88, suited Ax or AT-AJ.

Pre, I 3bet bigger, 30-35, you still have limpers to contend with that have position on you and could possible cold call.

OTF I bet a smaller proportion of the pot, 1/2-/23.

OTT, the A is a terrible card for him to bluff because it hits your range so hard, I'm giving him credit.
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Old 09-17-2014, 05:57 PM   #12
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

also don't mind bigger sizing pre here to 30-35
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Old 09-17-2014, 06:19 PM   #13
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Only you can answer this. You said villain bluffs too much but you failed to give us examples.
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:56 PM   #14
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

I folded. He said he had me. His calling range is rich with Aces, and I'm fairly sure he's seen me play JJ+ just like this before, so there's still a ton of fold left in me when the A spikes even if it is a pure bluff it's still going to work in this spot.
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:25 PM   #15
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Most lags will raise with a flush draw plus overs here. I would think he would go for c/r on turn to commit hero. Donk shoving maximizes FE. I expect he puts hero on overpair and is using the Ace to semi bluff a naked flush draw.
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:54 PM   #16
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

What is his range after he makes it $8 pre?

If he had not raised his SB, I'm calling his turn bet (given how you describe V I'm pretty much calling with 3-high).

But since he raised pre, I think you played it well and can fold OTT.
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Old 09-17-2014, 11:57 PM   #17
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Lol at the notion that V folds any part of his range to the PSB otf.

Smh...
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:03 AM   #18
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Grunch

Quote:
V checks to me I bet 55$. If I don't bet, he will barrel any turn, he is capable of running multi street bluffs, but he seems tighter and quieter than normal today.
If he barrels 100% of his range on the turn when we check, I'd check the flop planning to react to him when he bets the turn (and I wouldn't fold when he bets). That exploits his big weakness which is bluffing too much.

Betting the flop builds this pot against a tricky player with only one pair, and his range is stronger when he shows aggression (after you bet the flop). I think you'll be in tricky spots more often in bigger pots when you bet the flop, which means you'll make more big mistakes, like folding the best hand in a big pot.

If he barrels the turn a lot less than 95-100% then I like a flop bet much more.

Last edited by Steve00007; 09-18-2014 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:30 AM   #19
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

"I had you" lol I always say this when I'm bluffing and the poor guy won't stop begging me about what I had. You probably got bruffed sir, wp by him.

3! bigger pre, a little smaller on flop. And I fold turn a lot but if this guy is competent and I have seen him bluff scare cards before this might be a reasonable call especially with stack sizes
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:15 AM   #20
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

hate the 3! size. you have to make that at least 35. preferably 40 or 45. Superlags like that do not fold to 3 bets after they have raised.

As played...........tough. If he really has you crushed there, it seems more likely that he would CR the turn, or at least bet out like 80 and make you call two streets of value.

Conversely, this is how LAG's make money, they make other players call in ridiculous spots.

And even if he is semi-bluffing, he most likely has something like 67, that has some decent equity against your naked kings.

that shove really looks bluffy. I call.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:51 AM   #21
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

It was a tough spot, and I was up about 600$ for the session. I had played the last two days, about 10hrs combined, for a meager profit of only 200$ and was content with booking a decent win for this session. I probably let that cloud my judgement significantly. I sat for about 2 more orbits and left +400 for the day.

I'm not a pro, but I have no overtime available in my current job and poker is currently adding about 500-1000$ Per week to my bank account which is really a good thing for my family and I owe a lot of my success to 2+2ers for it.

Sometimes the money is a factor, and as much as I love the challenge of the game, it's really nice to book solid wins.

I think he was bluffing, yes. Do I feel bad? Not really. I'm still fairly confident that next time I'll use some of the advice I get here to make a more sound play. The analysis here is invaluable, and I thank everyone for chiming in.
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:09 AM   #22
hfrog355
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Sometimes people bluff and it works. Shrug.
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:32 AM   #23
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Totally fine with the fold. If you think he will sonthisnwith semi bluffs just as often then just set up the math and decide whether he is bluffing more or less than the numbers dictate.
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:04 PM   #24
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunChips View Post
In your history with him do you 3! hands other than AK JJ+?
Egg-zactly.

From villain's perspective, this is a pretty good line to bluff shove the turn against a tight player. You have to ride out the cbet and then bomb the scare card on the turn.

Thing is, I don't think the ace would be a good card to bluff-shove against a tight player. If we assume hero has a 3betting range of JJ+, AQ+, and further assume villain does not have an ace, there are 18 combo's of hands that (might) fold and 27 combos of Ax that almost certainly call.

I don't know if villain is thinking that far ahead, but his line suggests (to me) that he knows what he is doing. That might have been a bit of a spaz-shove due to priming effect but still.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:30 PM   #25
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Re: KK ip against super LAG

I'm trying to develop a more balanced 3bet range, I will 3bet light with a few medium suited aces and medium SCs when I sense the original PFR is weak, or simply trying to buy position. I'm working on this, as I think it's a major way to win pots on the flop in LLSNL, as cbets from a 3 bettor usually win the pot because standard Vs will call so light.

I think a super sticky LAG might even catch on to this, his 3bet calling range might be much tighter than his 3betting range which is what made me take pause. Him raising so small on the opener is begging for a 3bet which I think further narrows his range. So maybe he wasn't bluffing after all??

My head hurts now.
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