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Old 06-01-2014, 05:50 AM   #1
sheled007
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KK HU on wet board

home game 0.5\1 8handed
Hero sitting deep with 300bb
villain with 100bb, a good reg who didnt open many hands so far.

to the hand:

Villian in SB raise to 8bb
Hero at BB with KK raise to 20bb
folded to villian who calls.

Pot 34bb

Flop:
910J
Villian checks
Hero checks
Turn: 3

Villian bets pot, Hero?

my concerns are perhaps I should have 3bet higher preflop, the check on flop seemed good to me because he either has TT JJ KQ AA which beats me or AJ+ where I'm good.
Spoiler:
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:31 AM   #2
LtDan413
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Re: KK HU on wet board

The shove line seems way spewy to me. In a .5/1 game a 3 bet to 20bb is sufficient. The flop is VERY wet and when a "good reg" donk bets into you for 40 bb on the flop alarm bells should be going off. He really only has sets + in his range here based on his play. If you've never seen him play draws aggressively this should be an easy laydown on the flop.
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:00 PM   #3
sheled007
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtDan413 View Post
The shove line seems way spewy to me. In a .5/1 game a 3 bet to 20bb is sufficient. The flop is VERY wet and when a "good reg" donk bets into you for 40 bb on the flop alarm bells should be going off. He really only has sets + in his range here based on his play. If you've never seen him play draws aggressively this should be an easy laydown on the flop.
I guess youre just about right, but when the heart came along and opened more outs for me i thought it might be a good move. i could beat AJ+, small pocket pair and QQ, losing to TT JJ 99 and Kq.

note taken
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:46 PM   #4
Thorware
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Shove is pointless. You'll only get called by hands that beat you. Lots of draws are already there. Your K's are bluff-catchers at the moment, with a small chance to improve to the 2nd nuts, which if you catch, will most likely either win you no more money or cost you your stack.

I would have bet the flop and folded to a re-raise. A's, J's, T's, KQ all beat you. You only beat Q's and Q's have a good draw. A bet OTF gives you more options, lets you rep more scare cards, etc.

If you are checking the flop because you are that scared of the hands that beat you, then he leads immediately after you decline your c-bet, you need to fold. Why let him decide how much money goes in?
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Old 06-01-2014, 01:01 PM   #5
berry1
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Re: KK HU on wet board

fold or get it in. it's probably close but given we have Kh I find it hard to fold. Also with what range would he 4bet jam preflop? does he do that with JJ & TT?
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:18 PM   #6
Mr_Doomed
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Wasn't the flop checked through?

Regardless of that you should be sizing your 3 bet to get stacks in on just about any flop. So if you make if more like 25-30 bb we will has a low enough SPr to get stacks in on most flops. So there would be anywhere from 50-60bb in the pot and there would only be 70-75bb behind meaning we would just shove flop here.
Your plan for the hand seems flawed, sure it's not the best flop for KK but we have backdoor flush outs and a gut shot straight draw. Simply checking flop then folding to a bet in turn is way to weak tight. We should of bet folded flop if we were every gettin away but even that I'm not a huge fan of. We have no idea what exactly villian has and the only hand we are in horendous shape vs is AA with the A of hearts. All his confusion was when we check flop but still stacked off on the turn any ways.

Last edited by Mr_Doomed; 06-01-2014 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:32 PM   #7
Mr_Doomed
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Re: KK HU on wet board

SOME MORE POKER ADVICE…
I love all of the posts that say disregard everthing I did before I got check raised all in on the river and just tell me what to do now. Its like, “hey Dad its me billy and im in jail. Don’t ask me why I got drunk (standard). Don’t ask me why I drove (yawn). Don’t ask me how my car ended up in a 7-11 (meh). Just tell me how to keep from getting buttfuqqed tonight.

The truth is the beginning of the hand is the MOST important part…BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. Just like w/ 9 ball every shot sets up the next shot(s).
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:17 PM   #8
sheled007
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by berry1 View Post
fold or get it in. it's probably close but given we have Kh I find it hard to fold. Also with what range would he 4bet jam preflop? does he do that with JJ & TT?
exactly. Had the kings been black then I find this as an easy flop. but I had outs and I covered him.

he would 4bet KK AA AK and maybe AQ. I never got to see a showdown after a 4 bet with him unless its a shove preflop on vs a short stack.

I tend to agree I should have cbet the flop, but in this case it wouldnt help so much since villian flopped the nuts. I still think my 3bet was too low, should have made it 25bb. I had a read on his check voice which sounded very suspicious and that is why I checked. should have trusted me instincs, but that 3 came and gave me the outs... oh well.
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Old 06-01-2014, 04:00 PM   #9
C.J. Muffins
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Re: KK HU on wet board

At first read I was thinking set, AA would have 4 bet pre and you would of heard from QQ on the flop. Ewie, who raises SB with KQos. :P
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Old 06-01-2014, 04:10 PM   #10
Thorware
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheled007 View Post
I had a read on his check voice which sounded very suspicious and that is why I checked. should have trusted me instincs, but that 3 came and gave me the outs... oh well.
I know this feeling all too well. Same story in a similar hand post I made recently where I turned flush draw outs. The lesson I brought away for myself is that I should value draws less. Remember, 9 outs on the turn is only going to come one in five times! Do you really want to lose 4 pots just so you can win one? I appreciate your instinct to check, sounds like you had an excellent soul read. But the shiny flush draw on the turn blinded you and let your fish instinct win, to just go with the K's with which you feel "entitled" to win. Try to remember that a draw is not actually a good hand, this is something I have been reminding myself of a lot lately.
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:10 AM   #11
sheled007
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorware View Post
I know this feeling all too well. Same story in a similar hand post I made recently where I turned flush draw outs. The lesson I brought away for myself is that I should value draws less. Remember, 9 outs on the turn is only going to come one in five times! Do you really want to lose 4 pots just so you can win one? I appreciate your instinct to check, sounds like you had an excellent soul read. But the shiny flush draw on the turn blinded you and let your fish instinct win, to just go with the K's with which you feel "entitled" to win. Try to remember that a draw is not actually a good hand, this is something I have been reminding myself of a lot lately.
that is it. you put it correctly. that shove was just fish dumb, I came here mainly to check the PFR and whether or not should I cbet this flop.
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:17 AM   #12
RoyalRumble
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Were there limps pre and how many?

At first I thought he just opened to 8x and then you 3bet to 20x which makes me think his opening size is ridiculous and your 3bet is a decent size as you want to encourage the guy OOP with only 100bb to call you. You still have enough of your stack in preflop that you never really need to fold postflop.

When you mention it folds back around to villain then makes me think there was a few limps and his 8x is alot more reasonable sizing and as some of the limprs may have been deeper than 100bb and with position on you then I would have gone slightly bigger like 25-30x on the 3bet.

I would cbet and get it in on the flop. If we are putting KQ in his range then we also have to include AJ, QJ, KJ, 88 as well as the hands that beat us. Pot is 40-45bb and we have 80bb left so cant really see why we would consider folding at any point.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:35 AM   #13
JHair
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Re: KK HU on wet board

why aren't you betting flop here?
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:53 AM   #14
Moe Danglez
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Op, don't include the final results in the 1st post, leave it at "villain bets pot" and get some replies..everyone will act like superstars and know the right move when they already see the hands turned up

Folding to his turn bet seems really nitty especially when you'll never be drawing dead if you are behind
Shoving also seems a little spewy but I'm not really seeing any other options here, gii and say "run it twice?"
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:17 AM   #15
sheled007
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moe Danglez View Post
Op, don't include the final results in the 1st post, leave it at "villain bets pot" and get some replies..everyone will act like superstars and know the right move when they already see the hands turned up

Folding to his turn bet seems really nitty especially when you'll never be drawing dead if you are behind
Shoving also seems a little spewy but I'm not really seeing any other options here, gii and say "run it twice?"
we ran it twice, didnt catch the thanks for the advice regarding the original post.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:18 AM   #16
sheled007
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Re: KK HU on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHair View Post
why aren't you betting flop here?
I smelled something fishy in his check voice.
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