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KK has a flop quandry KK has a flop quandry

09-18-2018 , 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman
this is fine heads up against SB

WHY do you insist on forgetting about the all-in player and that button flatted

this makes a huge difference

does putting blinders on help you justify your bad play ?????
The all-in player can literally have anything and he called for LESS than our bet so he has almost zero relevance. BTN hardly ever has better than one pair here.

Folding is a bad play. Not a terrible one but still bad
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-18-2018 , 03:58 PM
way too high in our range to fold. enjoy being stuck at 1/2 forever folding this hand.
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-18-2018 , 05:05 PM
Mdelore, I think you're giving wayyyyyy too much credit to both the short stack and SB. With only 50$, Short stack will likely call off nearly any piece of the board, and both have many more FD combos than just Ah*h and Qh*h.

4,292,862 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Qd4h3h

Hand Equity
KcKs 39.07%
{44, 33, Qx4x, Qx3x, 4x3x, KQ, QJ, Qh*h, 6x5x, Ah*h, Ax4x, KhJh, KhTh, Kh9h, JhTh, Jh9h} 36.44%
{44, 33, 4x3x, AQ, KQ, QJ, QT, Qx9x, Qx8x, 99, Ah*h, Kh*h, JhTh, Jh9h, Jh8h, Th9h, Th8h, 9h8h, 8h7h, 7h6h, 6x5x, Ax4x} 24.49%

First range is SB, second range is short stack, I'm probably giving short stack too much credit here TBH, but I think SB's range is appropriate.
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-18-2018 , 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wait
way too high in our range to fold. enjoy being stuck at 1/2 forever folding this hand.
Yawn

We get it you play any two cards
never saw a flop you didn't like
and jam every turn even with no equity
as you LOVE TO GAMBOOL

and your handle is an oxymoron as you never ever wait for good cards

go get-em tiger grrrrr
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-18-2018 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman
button flatted
SB shoved

button most likely drawing
if you call he'll come along

in heat of moment quick math your looking at losing 3 of 4 times

I'd rather GII when I'm going to win 3 of 4 times
I think your assuming that the button will call the shove 100% of the time which I don't agree with ; if his hand was strong he would have raised himself; I don't think its something to worry about that much tbh because he will fold some % of the time. Who cares if he has draws? Him and the CO could have the same draw and be blocking each other outs sometimes as well
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-19-2018 , 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmo1120
I think your assuming that the button will call the shove 100% of the time which I don't agree with ; if his hand was strong he would have raised himself; I don't think its something to worry about that much tbh because he will fold some % of the time. Who cares if he has draws? Him and the CO could have the same draw and be blocking each other outs sometimes as well
OP described button as passive
passive players don't raise, they call along especially with draws
I do believe once we call then button perceives he's getting odds and calls he 90% of the time

like I said if you fell like gamboling go for it
but there will be far better places to GII where we are better then 28% to win
I much prefer being 78% to win
KK and I don't need a justice of peace just because I can win 1 out of 4 times

yes one on one we are most likely ahead it is the combined multiway that makes it low %
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-19-2018 , 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmo1120
I think your assuming that the button will call the shove 100% of the time which I don't agree with ; if his hand was strong he would have raised himself; I don't think its something to worry about that much tbh because he will fold some % of the time. Who cares if he has draws? Him and the CO could have the same draw and be blocking each other outs sometimes as well
This was my thought as well and I was not all that pleased when he called the shove. I just thought the odds of me winning versus 3 AI players hot/cold was dramatically lower than whatever additional EV I received from having BTN's $ in the pot. This might not be true, but with 3 all-ins, the chances of being against both a draw AND a made hand goes way up (and the chances of two draws goes down with card removal).
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-19-2018 , 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7
This was my thought as well and I was not all that pleased when he called the shove. I just thought the odds of me winning versus 3 AI players hot/cold was dramatically lower than whatever additional EV I received from having BTN's $ in the pot. This might not be true, but with 3 all-ins, the chances of being against both a draw AND a made hand goes way up (and the chances of two draws goes down with card removal).
This may be true but you don't know your up against 3 all-ins until he calls and when he does it makes it so that you have to be good here less often , I don't know exactly what the pot odds are after the BUT shoves but I think it was 273 to win around 1,000 ish ? You may only need around 25 % equity here to justify the play
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-19-2018 , 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by setintostraight
Results?
Post 13. I shoved, button also called and rivered a flush showing K6 and he scooped. SB didnt show but said he had 43 for bottom two (which I don't believe especially since after he left, another player said they folded 43o pre).
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-19-2018 , 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmo1120
This may be true but you don't know your up against 3 all-ins until he calls and when he does it makes it so that you have to be good here less often , I don't know exactly what the pot odds are after the BUT shoves but I think it was 273 to win around 1,000 ish ? You may only need around 25 % equity here to justify the play
And I agree. Just not sure the % of equity gained where I need to be good (as an example say, needing to be good 33% 3-way to needing to be good 25% 4-way) is worth the additional $ that button put in for me to WANT him to overcall. Maybe it is, but not sure how to quantify it.

Also, the shorty all-in is vying for the $279 main pot ($75 pre and $51 x 4 callers), so I think it might be better for me to have the side HU vs SB ($507) instead of 3-way for $747.
KK has a flop quandry Quote
09-19-2018 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7
And I agree. Just not sure the % of equity gained where I need to be good (as an example say, needing to be good 33% 3-way to needing to be good 25% 4-way) is worth the additional $ that button put in for me to WANT him to overcall. Maybe it is, but not sure how to quantify it.

Also, the shorty all-in is vying for the $279 main pot ($75 pre and $51 x 4 callers), so I think it might be better for me to have the side HU vs SB ($507) instead of 3-way for $747.
I see what your saying, it does get a little tricky math wise
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