Hi all,

1/3 MGM National Harbor. Hero is playing $400, V1 $300. Three limps and hero raises $21 BTN with KK. Five callers including V1. Pot $100.

Flop: Js-6-4s.

V1 in SB donks $50. V2 calls. Hero calls. Pot $250.

Turn: 2c. V leads $120. V2 folds. Hero?

Thanks,
DT

Easy call. Villain most likely has AJ, so you can't fold. But villain can also have sets, so you can't raise.

So I'd be overplaying my hand by jamming such a safe turn card? I put V on AJ (or possibly a set due to large sizing). V was an unknown too, so no reads. Seems like V is setting up a big river bet anyway, so why not get it in now? I am assuming I am calling all river bets too?

I'm not convinced the turn is a super duper slam dunk call, but calling is superior to jamming here for many reasons. If an A or J comes you can consider folding to a jam. If a spade comes you might buy yourself a free showdown, or again consider folding to the jam. If the river blanks out and he checks, you can jam yourself for value. You also really don't want him to fold a J if he has one.

Generally I go with my read on these players though. If I've seen him get aggressive post-flop I'm happy just calling down. If he's an uber-passive nit then I think I can find the turn puke fold. One pair is just not often a hand you want to play 100bb pot with, even though the 5-way-ness of it really inflates the pot and forces you to play bigger pots, but that also forces your hand to be stronger.

Dont we only have $30 left if we call turn....? It’s a jam or fold.

Prob just jamming and closing my eyes. We beat some slowplayed QQ, AJ, Jx, spades

Numbers don't add up, if you make it 21 and 5 calls, there should be 6 players in for $126 in the pot. In the grand scheme of things, this is a big issue, not so much in terms of SPR terms, but more whether you are recalling the hand that clearly or if you are paying enough attention at the tables. If the BI is standard 100bb, and you are up 33bb, how can you not have noticed the tendency of the table and what kind of preflop size effectively isolates? The sizing of 4x+1 for each caller does seem ok though so maybe you just got extremely unlucky with so many callers.

We need some just sitting info on the main villain, did he overlimp or was he in the blinds?

Another issue is flop. Did we have the Ks? If not, after V1 donks and V2 calls, what range of hands do you put both these players on? If we do not have Ks, then it is even more important that we raise here as a spade draw make up a big part of these combined range. We could be up against 66 and 44 but with 100bb effective, we might have to just stack off sometimes on boards where draws are very relevant.

On the turn, we have 100 behind if we call so we are not folding if we make the call now, so its jam or fold.

I like a raise otf without Ks and call behind with Ks. Most likely going to just jam the turn, I am not sure I am good enough to fold here to 6 combos of potential sets and 12 combos of AJ and A6ss. If villain has 53ss and just donks instead of check raise shove...well then so be it.

Its not really a donk bet 6 ways. You cant expect the PFR to cbet very often into 5 other players. The board is pretty great to call with though. FD might be betting, 2 pairs are rarer because the board is reasonably uncoordinated. Youre looking at plenty of Jx here looking to see where he is at, but youll certainly run into 64/44/66 sometimes and FDs sometimes (although id expect a FD to check the turn).

no reads on V makes it tougher too.

you also didnt say how many players behind. This is a pretty barebones description of the hand.

This makes it even more of a donkbet. Villain 100% has a single pair and doesnt want to let it get checked around.

Easy jam ott.

I'm gonna write a poker book. Will be only 1 page and all it will say is "stop folding overpairs in favorable SPR situations, and in most unfavorable SPR situations." Planning to charge $20 for it.

A bargain.

Even a physical description of villain would provide a read of some kind.

Is he 22? 72?

African American. White.Asian. Middle Eastern.

Business suit? Tie? Rock band T shirt?

Tattoos?



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30 y/o white guy hasn't played many hands. Was quiet at table. He was SB. I was BTN. No one left to act after me.

Preflop is nut low result, imo. (Did you feel like you were simply guessing for stacks postflop like I did? If so, do something different preflop.)

I guess I also call the flop.

Turn all comes down to reads. Against many players who know pretty much what I have here (overpair, duh), I might be able to make a hero fold. Otherwise, I would probably just ship it and live with results (since we'll have << 1/4 PSB for the river).

GcluelessNLnoobG

When I got so many callers I was of course disappointed. Could have made it $30 I suppose. Not knowing the kind of player he was I figured he could have AJ - what I normally see in this situation - and jammed. He called with set of 6s.

Nut low advice. Don't do anything different preflop. Nobody knows you have an overpair here.

I sometimes swear you must be trolling, but you've constantly posted stuff like this enough to know it's simply what you think. (we disagree, fine)

Love to hear your thoughts on V1's range once he donks into the world, and then continues betting the turn again into a flop caller and the preflop raiser who called the flop, as well as what V1's thinks Hero has after he overcalled the flop.

Goh,that'sright,V1isn'tthinkingaboutstufflikethat, right?G

Jx, 75, QQ and 2 spades come first to mind, as well as hands that beat us. Jx stacks off here for a large percentage of villains.

We raised the button and called $50 into $200. We can have all sorts of hands here. The notion that we're in any way face up here is completely insane. The V2 caller keeps floats mostly out of play without sick reads, but come on.

I would bet out a set here from the SB. I would super mega bet out a 2 pair from the SB.

lol. no.

Raise flop. Raise turn.

I give donk bets zero respect from unknowns at this level. Very occasionally you'll see a set but it's usually like KJ or spades.

You are not in the SB.

What are you trying to get value from by raising (probably shoving)? And how much does that make up of his range versus what you won't get value from because it folds or what you're behind?


I certainly don't think you should fold; no more than one bet has gone in on either postflop street and you beat TPTK on a non-terrifying board.

Villain is not folding. We get value from everything that is behind.

For those who advocated just flatting turn, won't the river shove be like a $110 into a $600 pot? How can we ever consider folding on the river?

And it's not like V is folding to a jam on the turn either.

Multi-way I honestly just jam his donk bet otf at least some of the time, multi-way be damned. There are just way too many Jx combos he can have compared to 66/44. He might even call it off with TT and a passively played QQ.

Without any reads on V, it's hard to say what the best line is. Some Vs will only donk with sets or better, some will 3/4 pot here with like TT into 5 people. MGM 1/3 is a very diverse crowd, ranging from absolute fish to people who might do pretty well at 5/10

If there is an argument to flatting, it's not that we're considering folding on the river. It's on the off chance that these bets might be probe bets with something like J8s or 76s that will fold to a raise. (But at these stack sizes I agree it's improbable.)

Also relevant is whether we put draws in our opponent's range and how we expect him to proceed if he misses. At these stacks it seems unlikely he'd make a desperation bluff so we may as well get value while we can.

As a big picture quick heuristic, our flop SPR is 3 so it's a problem if we're usually folding overpairs here but not a problem if we're usually playing for stacks with them.

If we're the preflop aggressor (especially on the tighter side where our preflop range might be more well defined), I'm not convinced that getting in stacks with an overpair against most typical opponents is going to work out very well in pots that go lol6ways (although "not very well" may still be profitable). Although at the same time obviously it gets super difficult to do anything else in SPR 3 pots, especially on drawy boards, which is mostly why I do something different preflop. HU, maybe 3ways, no doubt, but things change *so* much very multiway regarding the IO we're offering as well as how face up our hand should be at this point (unless we're against some pretty hurp durp opponents).

In this spot, I think far more opponents check/call (before making a decision for all their chips) with hands like TP versus betting it off themselves (especially when multiple players including the preflop raiser remain in the mix).

Gitisagrossspot,imoG

There's some memory bias going on here. We don't remember the times it goes check to us, bet; check to us, bet; check to us, bet, fold and we never see that they had a club draw or 75 or 76 or whatever. Nor for that matter when we get all in versus 64 here and win with a running pair or a king on the river.


But yes, six ways, somewhat often we will be outdrawn. We will more than make up for it with the money in the pot plus the times we get called for 1, 2, or 3 streets with worse. If you have AJ here at SPR=3, you're going to have a hard time getting away without playing for stacks.

Shorter: Don't fear monsters under the bed with one big pair.

Hero made it 7x, just about a PSR. What are you doing here preflop?

SPR is 3. Laying RIO is not our primary concern because there's not that much left to lose relative to the size of the pot and we're often ahead. Collecting IO from worse one pair hands happens more often.


This is six way raised pot. It took the dealer a few seconds to deal out a flop. If they came to gamble 30 seconds ago, it's unlikely they changed their minds and now want to play tight poker. Anyway, our hand shouldn't be face up. We're on the button. We could have KJ, or 76s, or two spades, or 75s, or....


Absolutely agree but leading into the PFR ("donkbet") is a rare play at any rate. Flip it around like Bayesian logic. It's a rare line if they have a set, a rare line if they have a FD, and a rare line if they have one pair below kings. But one pairs or FDs are much more likely than sets, and I figure they're actually less likely to play a set this way. More likely they have one pair or less and are probing for info or trying to price the draw in.

Upon reflection I think I like raising flop unless we think they'll fold their one pairs. Originally I preferred flatting both streets to keep those hands in, but I think a small flop raise and a turn shove are fine.