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Old 03-25-2019, 08:24 AM   #1
Petrucci
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kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

3/3 casino game in Sweden. Mix of 3-4 good/decent regulars, and some usual fish/rec players+ a drunk guy who is the clear spot in the game. 02 am, but game isnt particulary crazy.

Hero-$700. Not a reg in this casino, on a trip with a friend. Plays here maybe 3-4 times a year. TAG steady grinder image. Stacked villain like 20 minutes after he sat down, with K10 against 96 on 10-9-6-K board in a 3 bet pot. I open K10s from MP, button 3 bet small and villain cold called with 96s from OOP. Flop checked through and we got it allin on the turn. The hand in question, happens about 30 mins later.

Villain-covers. Asian guy in his late twenties, early thirties. Only been at the table for like 1,5 hours,but doesent seem to get too much out of line. Never seen him before nor played with him before. Reloaded with $500 after hero stacked him, and have rebuilded to like $800. Not alot of in depth reads to work with, so i am interested to hear what you guys have as baseline/default in similar spots like this when facing an unknown in casino games. I usually play with the same group of players i have hundreds of hours experience with on a weekly basis (i basically know their ranges to smallest detail and knows what they are capable of/not capable of), so i am admittedly little bit out of my element how to navigate these kind of spots against a total unknown.

Onto the hand. Hero raises red KK from early pos to $12, button calls and villain comes along in the SB. Flop 952. H bets $25 into $36. Button folds, then villain check-rizzles to $80. Hero?
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:42 AM   #2
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

I'd call ip with Kd blocker, stay in call mode on turn vs described V, may fold river unimproved.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:45 AM   #3
Petrucci
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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I'd call ip with Kd blocker, stay in call mode on turn vs described V, may fold river unimproved.
Isnt it better for us to call down when we have KK without the K of diamonds blocker, making is more likely villain have flushdraws in his range?

Anyway, would you mind eleborate little bit more about wich cards you are going to be calling down on and not?

Lets say the flushdraw bricks out, are you stationing down all streets regardless of betsizes from villain assuming he barrells off here?

The last question is what i feel is problematic in these kinds of spots against unknowns. I dont have a clue what they are capable of, if they have total spazz in their range or if they only play sets/nutted combodraws this way or not.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:32 PM   #4
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

Tough spot.

Could probably let it go. Top of the range yada yada but until you seem him play pocket 99-jj this way, a combo draw or a9 then probably best to just stay stafe.

Stacks are going to go in on a single raised pot and you have 1 pair.

I see villain having alot of sets here. But even if he has a4 of diamonds he is flipping with you son. You can find better spots.

I like checking flops in position heads up when deep with overpairs QQ-AA for just this reason. Facing a check raise is devastating. In a 3bet pot with different SPR's i'm never checking but in these single raised pots I'd rather not go broke with 1 pair.

If effective stack is 100bb or less then decision is trivial ship.

In multiway pots you can expect villains to play a little more upfront. Heads up it's a guessing game.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:36 PM   #5
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

Not a tough spot.

Call the raise and bomb the turn for 3/4 pot when the FD misses.

I'm ready to stack off with this guy based on the 96 hand. So far, the read is this guy likes to slow-play monsters, so we can discount considerably any sets here.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:39 PM   #6
StinkHolePatrol
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Lightbulb Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
Not a tough spot.

Call the raise and bomb the turn for 3/4 pot when the FD misses.

I'm ready to stack off with this guy based on the 96 hand. So far, the read is this guy likes to slow-play monsters, so we can discount considerably any sets here.
So if he has 96 there why cant he have 95 suited here. or 52 suited.

We have nothing to suggest he plays draws aggressively. He showed up with two pair before. He didn't slowplay his two pair before, he checked to the raiser with the intention of check raising but it checked through.

A pair + a fd is flipping with us
A4 diamonds flipping
34d flipping

Behind all two pairs
Sets

The only hand we beat is a naked flush draw. or something like TT/JJ.


We're really about to put in 200bb with one pair in a single raise pot against the SB on a board that smashes him based on his prior hand history.

200bb deep you really have to pick your spots and play defensively in single raise pots. Otherwise guys like me are going to stack you when you get married to your overpair. If villain is anywhere half decent he knows hero has an overpair here. EP raise, and 2/3 pot on flop. I doubt he thinks hero is willing to fold it.

Last edited by StinkHolePatrol; 03-25-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:42 PM   #7
Petrucci
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Not a tough spot.

Call the raise and bomb the turn for 3/4 pot when the FD misses.

I'm ready to stack off with this guy based on the 96 hand. So far, the read is this guy likes to slow-play monsters, so we can discount considerably any sets here.
I dont really wanna waste time on nitpicking too much Lapi, but i dont understand how the 96 hand is giving us a read that he likes to slowplay monsters made hand. He was OOP in that hand in a 3 bet pot, and checked in gameflow probably hoping that the 3 bettor on the button would c-bet like people do alot in 3 bet pots of course. When it got checked around, he fired himself out on the turn. I shipped on him when i turned top two and he called.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:54 PM   #8
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

Doesnt get out of line but cold called a 3bet with 96s? Doesnt compute.

Call and see what develops on the turn.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:06 PM   #9
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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I dont really wanna waste time on nitpicking too much Lapi, but i dont understand how the 96 hand is giving us a read that he likes to slowplay monsters made hand. He was OOP in that hand in a 3 bet pot, and checked in gameflow probably hoping that the 3 bettor on the button would c-bet like people do alot in 3 bet pots of course. When it got checked around, he fired himself out on the turn. I shipped on him when i turned top two and he called.
OK... V calls 3b from OOP with 96 and let's the hand check thru. I'm going with V is a moron and he likely slowplays his monsters and pushes his draws. Given that there is no more info provided by Hero...

Dodge the FD and GII with KK vs whatever the hell he has.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:13 PM   #10
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

Cold-called a 3bet with 96 then checked the flop and gii on a K turn? Doesn't say a lot about this guy's skill level. (Well, actually, it does.)

I'm calling. I might just raise him on most turns if he leads. Definitely not folding unless another diamond comes, and then I'll hope for another one on the river.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:14 PM   #11
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
OK... V calls 3b from OOP with 96 and let's the hand check thru. I'm going with V is a moron and he likely slowplays his monsters and pushes his draws. Given that there is no more info provided by Hero...

Dodge the FD and GII with KK vs whatever the hell he has.
Again he was OOP and checked the 3! raiser. Probably with the intention of check raising.

It's clear you didn't even read OP, you just saw KK and aren't folding. You are def a losing player.


Do you donk lead your 2 pairs into the 3! raiser?


We aren't saying villain is good, we are saying he plays marginal hands OOP(which this board smashes). We have nothing to suggest he plays draws aggressively.

In my experience, villains that play any two suited cards do not check raise draws often enough to make shipping 200bbs with 1 pair profitable. Most are very passive trying to chase the flush/straight for cheap.

Because they litterally flop a draw every hand, they would be shipping every hand.


If the board bricks out, are you really going to put 700$ in the middle for villain to show you 52 suited?



Similar situation happened last week. Playing with a reg TAG on my right. Opens 15 UTG. Obvious KQs -AKo or tt-AA.

Reg flats in bb.

Flop Ks 10c 6c. Combo draw city right?

Bets 2/3 pot. Check raised and ships it in with aces for 150bbs.

Villain snaps him off with 10s 6s.

Tag reg looks at me and says "What can i do". I just said, "Yea bro nothing you can do". All I was thinking inside was "fold 1 pair for 150bb's" and call off with sets/two pairs and AQ/AK of clubs.


Villains with wide ranges aren't dumb, they play live poker, they know people don't fold TPTK or overpairs. Most villains aren't check raising draws anymore in live poker because they've had too many experiences where no one folds. So why not just draw and get paid if you hit?

No one is trying exploiting you the way you level yourself into thinking they are.

Last edited by StinkHolePatrol; 03-25-2019 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:20 PM   #12
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Originally Posted by StinkHolePatrol View Post
Again he was OOP and checked the 3! raiser. Probably with the intention of check raising.
So what? He gii on a K turn. Yes, he's terrible. Now he's calling raises with 95 or 52? More power to him. If he flopped a set, so be that, too. I am not folding KK vs. this guy, ever, until I have more information -- much more. This is so much more likely a draw than a made hand. I might not shove or call a shove, but I'm never, ever, folding this flop in position to this guy.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:21 PM   #13
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Originally Posted by StinkHolePatrol View Post
Again he was OOP and checked the 3! raiser. Probably with the intention of check raising.

It's clear you didn't even read OP, you just saw KK and aren't folding. You are def a losing player.


Do you donk lead your 2 pairs into the 3! raiser?


We aren't saying villain is good, we are saying he plays marginal hands OOP(which this board smashes). We have nothing to suggest he plays draws aggressively.

In my experience, villains that play any two suited cards do not check raise draws often enough to make shipping 200bbs with 1 pair profitable. Most are very passive trying to chase the flush/straight for cheap.

Because they litterally flop a draw every hand, they would be shipping every hand.


If the board bricks out, are you really going to put 700$ in the middle for villain to show you 52 suited?
Lulz...

I'm not going to wait for the board to brick out and let V fold his busted FD OTR.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:41 PM   #14
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

OP post spoilers?

The discussion has been had, no one is folding except me.

Well actually i'm checking this flop IP deep as it is an unfavorable board for EP raisers. My hand is going to be a two street hand and i'm happy to get those two streets OTT/OTR whether villain or I do the betting.


100bb or less i'm never checking. 150+ check.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:52 PM   #15
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

I want to make it 205.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:58 PM   #16
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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The last question is what i feel is problematic in these kinds of spots against unknowns. I dont have a clue what they are capable of, if they have total spazz in their range or if they only play sets/nutted combodraws this way or not.
Why can't we 3! flop to something ridiculously small to ~$185.

1. If V 4!s, we can easily fold as this is almost always a set that is punishing us for falling in love with OPs or aggressively playing our AXdd NFD. Sucks to put in ~25% of our stack and fold, but I think it is way better than calling down against an unknown.

2. V calls. More than likely a draw of some sort. We find out V is capable of X/R flop with draws. Can value bet safe turns and can fold if a straitening or flush card comes in and V donks into us.

3. V folds. Have seen (and I do it occasionally) Vs X/R flops that should hit their SB calling range way harder than EP open. Some tight Heroes will snap fold their OP because we obv have a set. Again we gain valuable info for future hands.

While in a vacuum this may not be the most EV line to take, but until we have more info on our Vs, I think the best way to gain that info is to put some pressure on them in marginal spots and see how they react. Even if we are flipping with his better draws, there will be plenty of dead money in the pot (scenario 2) to offset that and it should be pretty transparent which cards we can fold to a bet and which ones we can bet for value.

Last edited by CowboyCold; 03-25-2019 at 02:01 PM. Reason: slow ponied by Amanaplan (i hope)
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:01 PM   #17
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

Thanks to being so deep, I actually don't care what we do preflop. We can limp, we can raise small, whatever. Heck, even if we raised and went 5ways to the flop we'd still have a very playable and non-handcuffing SPR of 12. As played, a huge SPR of 19, so preflop is mostly all about disguising our range than anything else.

Flop is a little drawy and no one seems to be getting too out-of-line, so I'm fine with a cbet and our sizing.

And my default here is to just fold to the raise. The HH hand shows him being extremely loose preflop (lol at coldcalling a 3bet OOP with 96s) but postflop where the real money started getting in he simply had what he thought was the best hand (better than one pear). So that's what he mostly has here apart from some super draws (and super draws are doing fine, not that he's always check/raising them) which he may or may not shut down with on the turn.

ETA: Put me more in StinkHole camp here. And I don't know if we're reading the read different than everybody else or what but what I read is just some loose preflop guy willing to call a very small % of stack preflop hoping to hit his hand (I'm not sure what a "small" 3bet is exactly, but if it was a raise to $12 and a 3bet to $30, this would only be 6% of dude's stack, and while it's still horrible, it's not like OMG lol 30% horrible).

GifI'mnotcomfortablefoldingtotheflopcheck/raisethenIsimplychecktheflopandgettoshowdownG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 03-25-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:11 PM   #18
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

It's a bet fold never at this sizing. Never ever. Ever.
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:13 PM   #19
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

yes i rather not have Kd, but better than having Ad.

just call down for now vs described villain. seems like he is ok splashing around a little.

calling almost any turn. calling most rivers unless flush gets there and villain bombs it
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:15 PM   #20
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post


ETA: Put me more in StinkHole camp here. And I don't know if we're reading the read different than everybody else or what but what I read is just some loose preflop guy willing to call a very small % of stack preflop hoping to hit his hand (I'm not sure what a "small" 3bet is exactly, but if it was a raise to $12 and a 3bet to $30, this would only be 6% of dude's stack, and while it's still horrible, it's not like OMG lol 30% horrible).

GifI'mnotcomfortablefoldingtotheflopcheck/raisethenIsimplychecktheflopandgettoshowdownG
We refer to these guys as bingo players. They'll play any two suited for under 50$.

But they aren't thinking players. They don't understand ranges, they don't understand anything but their two cards. If they have a strong hand (Two pair plus) they start putting money in. If not then they just call.

They are never folding flushes, straights, two pairs, sets. You can stack these guys on flush over flushes, nut straight over donk straight. Top two over bottom two, set over two pari. Flush over set. There are just so many great oppurtunities to stack these guys easily and risk free rather then wishing he's on a combo draw that is flipping with our 1 pair hand.

Usually bingo players are very value heavy on re-raises. They can semibluff if they are the initial raiser but I just so rarely see these guys playing back at initial raisers with draws, even strong ones.
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:22 PM   #21
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
It's a bet fold never at this sizing. Never ever. Ever.
Are you saying we can B/F to a larger bet amount?

Also, at what stack depth are we never ever, ever folding KK?
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:31 PM   #22
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

Results?
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:09 PM   #23
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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Are you saying we can B/F to a larger bet amount?

Also, at what stack depth are we never ever, ever folding KK?
Never folding flop I mean, not for this amount. If he made it much larger, then I'd lose some 1p combos bc the expectation is that he is going to take a raise big, bet big, bet all-in on just about any runout which is awfully hard to play against even from IP, and even harder to defend against with a static op.
Of course, he doesn't do that here, not yet at least, and that let's us peel far wider than usual, including a call w KK. Now, I like a 3b when he sizes like this for a handful of reasons, but calling is going to be ok too. Folding is not.

I prefer the equity w the Kd over the blocker qualities here btw bc we can call more turns (that complete a fd) and I still subscribe to the pop tendency that Kxdd type FDs are ck-called more often here.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:14 PM   #24
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

How much larger does he have to raise before we consider folding? He went over 3x and he's still going to mostly bend us over a barrel on future streets, no?

GcluelessbendingoverbarrelnoobG
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:23 PM   #25
Amanaplan
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Re: kk deep,facing check-raise on raggy board

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How much larger does he have to raise before we consider folding? He went over 3x and he's still going to mostly bend us over a barrel on future streets, no?

GcluelessbendingoverbarrelnoobG
Certainly more than 80 - He might slow down turn. I want to pop him back because he just has too many hands here because he's at a live 3/3 game in Europe...and the 96ss hand...and sizing...and the 9 isn't a diamond, and, let's get him in a spot and push our hand/range equity IP, 205, maybe I'm spewing, don't think so. A case can be made to flat an entire continuing range too, but I don't wanna.
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