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Old 04-07-2021, 10:19 AM   #51
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

Even if Villain had flatted the 4B, we’d be at 0.5 SPR. KK is committed on nearly every flop, including Ace high boards. Maybe we could get away from our hand on monotone Ace-high flops when we don’t hold the King of the suit?

I am probably always taking a check/call line, or a check/check/lead turn line (except on the Ace high boards where I would check turn).

The interesting decision point in this hand is preflop and whether to flat or cold 4bet. After that point the hand plays itself.

(Folding KK preflop at 85BB stack depth is very bad, please don’t ever do it.)

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 04-07-2021 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:45 AM   #52
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

Lol 25 post per page
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Old 04-07-2021, 11:05 AM   #53
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

But I'm using technology from 2015. So when I'm perusing threads over in LVL with multiple pics they load on average 75% faster per page. YMMV
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Old 04-07-2021, 11:31 AM   #54
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
How is this even a question? You have to call, even if he flips over AA before you act
OPs post is a little unclear.

If he 4bet to $125 *on top* of the $45 3bet for a grand total of $170, then pot should be $3 (limper) + $12 (V1) + $260 (V2) + $1 SB + $170 (Hero) - $10 (rake/BBJ/tip) = $436, with Hero needing to call $90. So 4.8:1 to call, so obvious call even if Villain flips up AA beforehand.

However, if he 4bet to $125 total (which is how I would have interpreted "a 4bet to $125"), then pot should be $391 with Hero needing $135 to call. So only 2.9:1, so clear fold if Villain flips up AA beforehand.

I mean, in real life a 5bet in this spot is only AA. But I just don't think I can fold KK preflop for less than 100bb. I'm guessing we run into a AK that thinks they are committed so lets-shove-and-gamble, or the other KK, enough of the time at this stack depth.

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Old 04-07-2021, 11:35 AM   #55
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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With all due respect, I am seldom to never flatting KK+ OOP. Now, after going through the replies so far, that may very well change - if conditions seem right. The problem (and it's a big one) is that flatting a 3-bet OOP looks very strong when coming from someone the others think is a winning player and has the tendency to dry up the action, unless they hit hard.
To be honest, I wouldn't fret this exact spot too much. And even though I'm fence-sitting somewhat preflop (as there are reasons to flat), in the end I really don't think you can go too far wrong just 4betting (to call a shove) here all the time.

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Old 04-07-2021, 12:21 PM   #56
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

Yea, I called. It's just that I didn't expect the speech and I have an automatic hold button when something unexpected happens.

Anyway, the flop came AA3, turn 7, river A and the guy tabled ATo.

I smiled, said "Jackpot" and collected about $3k.
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Old 04-07-2021, 01:34 PM   #57
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

I mean obviously the guy is a moron of the highest degree, so clearly 4betting (and never folding) is the best play against guys like him.

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Old 04-07-2021, 04:36 PM   #58
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

Yup
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Old 04-07-2021, 05:58 PM   #59
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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Anyway, Hero 4-bets to $125.
Limper says: "Aww, heeelll no!" and mucks.
V1 looks distressed and mucks after about a minute of looking around and thinking.

V2 then pauses ... and makes a speech about how the rest of his money might as well go in the pot, then leans forward while he pushes his stack in - obviously very engaged.

V2 shoves for $90 more. Pot $531

Hero?
I don't know why you're even second guessing this. It's a snap call ainec. Sounds like he showed up with rockets, and you're trying to see if you could have gotten away. Actually I woulda 4bet jammed pre anyway with these stack sizes which would leave SPR very tight if we did anything but jam. Also, a jam might look more like a squeeze play with AK, TT, etc. where 125 definitely looks more like AA/KK than if you just jammed.

Quote:
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My cold 4 bets are definitely wider than this, and this isn't necessarily true anyways. Regardless it really doesn't matter. I cold 4 bet the other day and the guy hemmed and hawed for a minute before calling with QQ and then saying "I know you have AA or KK." The point is, people will think it means KK+ and will still call with hands that are crushed by KK+.
A cold 4bet in 1/3 from an average unknown player is mostly going to be aces or kings like 97% of the time.
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Old 04-07-2021, 08:32 PM   #60
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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I don't know why you're even second guessing this. It's a snap call ainec. Sounds like he showed up with rockets, and you're trying to see if you could have gotten away. Actually I woulda 4bet jammed pre anyway with these stack sizes which would leave SPR very tight if we did anything but jam. Also, a jam might look more like a squeeze play with AK, TT, etc. where 125 definitely looks more like AA/KK than if you just jammed.
NIce that you feel so confident that you're willing to ignore extra information provided by your opponents. Personally, I kick myself if I realize I've passed an opportunity to learn something - which is why I have my auto-hold button in the first place.

Now, I seriously doubt anything would have caused me to fold to the shove. However, knowing that a speech and strength tell from this guy doesn't mean strength, but most probably means "I'm excited to gamble, whatever my cards" is 100% worth knowing.
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Old 04-07-2021, 08:44 PM   #61
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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NIce that you feel so confident that you're willing to ignore extra information provided by your opponents. Personally, I kick myself if I realize I've passed an opportunity to learn something - which is why I have my auto-hold button in the first place.

Now, I seriously doubt anything would have caused me to fold to the shove. However, knowing that a speech and strength tell from this guy doesn't mean strength, but most probably means "I'm excited to gamble, whatever my cards" is 100% worth knowing.
What do you mean by “auto-hold button”?

To be fair, you’re posting in an Internet forum and PAHWM doesn’t usually include super specific live reads middle of the way through the hand.
If you’d started the post by saying V2 was an OMC we’d maybe have reacted differently. But you started by saying V2 was a loose LAG. Everyone is basing their replies off of that, not off of a random “speech tell”. The fact you gave us that the dude is a spaztard overrules the other little live tells. In my view we learn a lot more from showdowns.

Even if the speech tell means this dude thinks he has a monster, a monster doesn’t have to be AA. If this guy is playing 80% of hands and he realizes the table thinks he’s a maniac, maybe he just picked up QQ and correctly realizes this is a monster hand for a LAG and nobody will give him credit?

Just never fold KK preflop at 85BB stack depth and you’ll be fine in life. Don’t overthink it mate.

If you did really 4bet to 170 (125 more) you’re getting direct odds to draw even if he flips over AA. So of course you can never fold in this particular hand. Which is why, if you want to consider ever having a 4bet fold line you would have had to raise to 135.

Personally I would have just shoved preflop since the small raise looks even stronger than the all in IMO.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 04-07-2021 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 04-07-2021, 09:35 PM   #62
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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What do you mean by “auto-hold button”?
Well, if something happens that wasn't expected, or an opponent is providing extra information, I want a moment to consider it. It might be useful on that hand and it might be useful on a future hand. I don't want to just blow by whatever it may be.

Quote:
Personally I would have just shoved preflop since the small raise looks even stronger than the all in IMO.
While I didn't consider that at the time and in retrospect, it's a completely valid option against V2, with a $260 stack. You're ignoring V1 with the $350 stack and the limper (who was, I grant, a non-entity).

If V1 shoved for $180 more and V2 folds, I'm probably still pot committed, but it's a tougher decision.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:42 PM   #63
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

You say “If V1 shoved...”, but what is the probability of that event? Say he’s a pretty tight open, and he opens 120 combos. 6 of those combos are AA. Let’s say when he shoved it’s always AA. That happens 6/120=5% of the time. Then, using your 170 bet sizing, you’re able to get away from the hand and save your last 180. So you save 180 5% of the time. That’s $9 savings in EV. Meanwhile you’re looking to play a huge pot against the LAG for his entire stack. If you can make your hand look a bit more like a bluff by shoving, can you get called like 5% more often? If it’s just a matter of him calling you down with KJo or 77, then maybe yeah you win 5% of 80% of his 260 stack, which is already more than $9.

In summary, I’d be thinking about optimizing versus the aggressor in this spot and wouldn’t worry too much about the first opener who should be doing a lot of folding.

Now if you’re really deep against the first opener (let’s say he has 500 effective) then the math starts to change. I’d be looking to just raise to an amount to put V2 all in with whatever hand I have, while leaving myself room to fold to V1.

Now it sounds like V2 is really fun, and it probably doesn’t matter too much what you do. But against better players, that small raise leaving very little money behind looks strong (it’s never QQ IMO — wouldn’t QQ just shove?). You might induce a lot of folds with it against players who are thinking at all.
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:12 PM   #64
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

grunch:
Honestly I think just all in one of them'll put you AK and hero you with a pair.
If not then a tiny 4bet I guess
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:15 PM   #65
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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NIce that you feel so confident that you're willing to ignore extra information provided by your opponents. Personally, I kick myself if I realize I've passed an opportunity to learn something - which is why I have my auto-hold button in the first place.

Now, I seriously doubt anything would have caused me to fold to the shove. However, knowing that a speech and strength tell from this guy doesn't mean strength, but most probably means "I'm excited to gamble, whatever my cards" is 100% worth knowing.
You raised to 125 pre with kings, someone jammed for 90 more.... There's nothing to think about, even if he swears to you he has aces, I'm not folding. Use your call any button.
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:20 PM   #66
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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You raised to 125 pre with kings, someone jammed for 90 more.... There's nothing to think about, even if he swears to you he has aces, I'm not folding. Use your call any button.
What we have here is a failure to communicate.

The pause, for the third time, is to absorb unexpected information which might be useful now, or later.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:11 PM   #67
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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The pause, for the third time, is to absorb unexpected information
please don't be that guy
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:25 PM   #68
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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please don't be that guy
What? You're not going to let someone finish giving a speech and take a moment?

Or, are you talking about the kind of people that sit there for a couple of minutes? If so, that's not me. I usually take 10-30 seconds. In this case, it was about 10.
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Old 04-08-2021, 06:11 PM   #69
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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I usually take 10-30 seconds.
I would hate to be at your table if you tank for that long unnecessarily. You had kings and got raised for less than a minraise 10 seconds is way to long.
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Old 04-08-2021, 07:41 PM   #70
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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I would hate to be at your table if you tank for that long unnecessarily. You had kings and got raised for less than a minraise 10 seconds is way to long.
Then you're rather self-important.
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Old 04-08-2021, 08:51 PM   #71
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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Then you're rather self-important.
It's more about your game than mine (or my pet peeves). I'm all for players taking as long as they need to make a decision, but when you have kings and decide take up to 30 seconds just to watch people when you already know what you're gonna do is just slowing down the game. You're automatically gonna see what he has (he went all in, he has to show at showdown), so what kind of information are you looking for?
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Old 04-08-2021, 09:17 PM   #72
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

When you tank unnecessarily you’re also hurting your bottom line. Just fist pump the kings and move on
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Old 04-08-2021, 09:48 PM   #73
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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It's more about your game than mine (or my pet peeves). I'm all for players taking as long as they need to make a decision, but when you have kings and decide take up to 30 seconds just to watch people when you already know what you're gonna do is just slowing down the game. You're automatically gonna see what he has (he went all in, he has to show at showdown), so what kind of information are you looking for?
You are misunderstanding. The 10 seconds I spent was absorbing the behavior to remember what this guy does, combined with the decision to call. Under other conditions, it may take me a little longer to try and understand the person's motivation. It's not about the current hand, it's about the future.

In this case, the guy gets engaged by the gamble for a big pot, not by a strong starting hand. That's worth 10-30 seconds to absorb.

That said, this situation just doesn't come up all that often, maybe once every few sessions.

You're making a bigger deal out of it than it's worth.
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Old 04-09-2021, 02:55 AM   #74
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

Late to this party but I 4bet pre to something like ~$115. Yeah a cold 4bet is strong but we are OOP and multiway. I'd consider flatting if we were HU on the BTN.
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Old 04-09-2021, 03:47 AM   #75
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Re: KK in BB PAHWM

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You're making a bigger deal out of it than it's worth.
It's not a "big" deal, but it will likely be interpreted as a slowroll. Keep your customers happy. 10s is a long time when you're sweating an all-in. I don't see why you can't "absorb" everything after you call.
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