V1: $350 effective, Semi-loose TAG - folds easily.
V2: $260 effective, loose LAG. Earlier, I shoved a river with AT (broadway), fish called and he over-shoved with QT to chop the side with a K-high straight.
Hero easily covers.

Open limp, V1 raise to $12, V2 re-raise to $45, folded to Hero with KK.

I think my best play is to isolate V2.

Hero?

What positions are V1 and V2?

MP & MP+1

I would 4 bet to $150

Exploitatively make it big enough to where the SPR is so low that he will feel obligated to call off on almost all boards (like 77 on J82), but small enough to where he may mindlessly peel vs the 4 bet not realizing that he’s invested over a third of his stack already


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135

Isolation raise is obviously the best move. You don't want to be seeing a flop 3 ways OOP with a single pair. Any reasonable raise that gets a call will make SPR trivial. You describe V1 as folding easily so I like going a little low here. $120 looks good too me. Your goal isn't to put too much pressure on V2 but anything smaller is too close to a min raise.

As long as we raise, I'm down with everything.

Flat or $125. Stack sizes are tiny compared to his 3bet.

Why flat?

Stack sizes are tiny compared to his 3bet. We can encourage a bunch of weak cBets when we flat and he's already close to committed.

I don't know, seems risky. We still have the $3 limper and the original raiser at this point. While the limper will probably fold to the 3-bet, it's not anywhere near guaranteed. I'm pretty sure the original raiser will call. Thus we see the flop 3 ways and I'm totally OOP.

Flatting seems like something I might do from the button.

What position is Hero?

I’m likely just making it 90.

Practically speaking, that's a min-raise 4-bet. You need to explain that more fully.

(Hero is in BB)

Well I want to 4bet.

My options are to go all in? Which could be ok, but the risk:reward is a little fuzzed and we can’t really do it with anything besides JJ+/AK
So we probably only get action from QQ+/AKs

Or we could 4bet to a non-all in size. If we wanna do that then we can use more hands than JJ+/AK and the advantage to that is that we can fold some of our range if we get jammed on.
In this case my primary concern is picking a size that lets me raise and then fold to a shove (from the 360 play) (obviously I can’t fold vs the 230 player)
So I need to pick a size small enough that lets me do that.
90 1/4 of the stack so if he jams we will be getting 3:5 or 3/8 or 37.5% required equity and I think we will be able to fold a hand like AQs/KQs/TT for that price.

So I land on 90.

Any more than that and I don’t think u will be able to have the 4bet/fold range. And if u can’t have the 4bet/fold range then you’re better off just jamming imo.

I'm not sure what games you folks play in, but a cold 4 bet out of the blinds is KK+ for any unknown to most players. A 5 bet is mostly going to be AA, so if I'm going to raise, I like 100 or so. If everyone folds, winning 20 BB is a good result.

I like flatting better because I can win more money than 20 BB. The pfr is going to put in some additional money against my hidden hand. Anyone set mining is losing Sklansky bucks.

Little disagreement - but does this imply you don't have a cold 4bet range? Or just giving support to a small flat %? I agree it's a strong look, but that alone can't dissuade us from it here right?

Raise to 90 looks even stronger than a flat or a larger bet IMO. A raise to 90 will fold out the TAG player most likely. So I don’t like the minraise.
If we’re gonna raise, we should go 3x or more.. If we raise 3x to 135, the pot will be 280 going to the flop and effective stacks with V2 LAG will be 125. If V2 has TT/JJ and the flop brings an A/K/Q, he can get away from it.
I think the play here is to just shove all in for 6x raise. We’ll get calls from AK (maybe AQ, depending on our image and how loose V2 is) and TT+.
If we were a bit deeper against V2, I might go to 3x.

Edit: On second thought if these players are quite bad and they’ll stack off with top pair, I can see the merits to flatting. I guess I prefer shove > flat >> raise to any other amount.

Edit 2: OP what are V2s 3-betting tendencies preflop? Is he 3-betting a lot with weaker holdings? If so, I like a flat a lot better because our hand will be quite a bit more disguised and we can give V2 some rope to hang himself with a postflop bluff. 4-betting just turns our hand to be more face up.

I don't have an automatic cold 4 bet range. Part of it is my age. Most players think my 3bet range is KK+. Against the "got to play GTO" or "not going to let this guy push me out of the pot" players, I'm happy to 4 bet cold.

My cold 4 bets are definitely wider than this, and this isn't necessarily true anyways. Regardless it really doesn't matter. I cold 4 bet the other day and the guy hemmed and hawed for a minute before calling with QQ and then saying "I know you have AA or KK." The point is, people will think it means KK+ and will still call with hands that are crushed by KK+.

A 5-bet from V1 is most likely AA. But a 5-bet from V2 could be much wider. I don’t think we can raise/fold KK against a LAG in V2.
V1 should have a fairly wide range, and I don’t think we really need to worry much that he has AA at this stage (that would be quite MUBsy thinking).
So I struggle to see the rationale for 4bet/fold being a consideration at this point in the hand, and for it to influence our 4bet sizing.

This ^. One good player in my private game I have seen him 4 bet as light as AJ suited, I've also seen AQo 4 bet out of a small blind.

You still should only be defending the top of your range if you 3 bet light, but you can't pretend it's always KK+ on a 4 bet.

As played, I like 135 as a 4 bet amount, or even higher, especially OOP. If I was LP, I could see my self minraising, but I'd rather be more committed with a hand like kings early when I don't have position.

Is this 1/3 NL?

What's our image?

If we have a tight image, a cold 4bet from the blinds facing a tight open + a 3bet is just so massively strong. Can V2 manage to fold some of his 3betting range here? I think most would be able to, but if he can't, then easy 4bet (I'd probably minnish raise).

Could V1 do our reraising for us if we flat?

I'd obviously be more comfortable flatting with AA here. But I'm tempted to with KK, especially since we're still getting in massive percentages of these stacks. Although one of the drawbacks is AK likely ain't going to be able to fold preflop (but could postflop), although we block half those combos. And the worse V2 (and possibly V1) is then the more they ain't going to fold QQ-TT preflop (but could fold them postflop on A/K/etc. high boards).

I think this mostly depends on where opponents fall on the moron scale.

GcluelessNLnoobG

The value of position becomes much less important the smaller the SPR becomes (due to the less postflop play that can happen). You could even argue that in some spots in a very small SPR (such as 1) that you even want to be OOP so that you have the chance to bluff first (obviously not applicable to this hand).

If we flat and go 3ways, the remaining stacks will be $305 and $215 with $135 in the pot, so if everyone flops an overpair/TP then everyone is going to feel committed (and stacks will likely go in by the turn if not the flop). Yeah, A high flops will suck, but at this depth it isn't going to matter too much OOP vs in position (as the rest of our stack will still be in play on any single street).

Not sayin' that flatting is best, just sayin' that being OOP in this spot doesn't factor in nearly as much as it would in a higher SPR pot.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Well, the game has only been going an hour, however, my impression of this LAG is that he was craving action. I didn't assign a range at the time, but my table math suggested a fairly wide 3-bet range. Say 99+, AJs+, AQ+, KQ, and a little air.

What I wanted, at the time, was to isolate him. Since he was in a gambling mood, I didn't think he would fold anything but air.