Just to be clear, are you advocating flatting a 3 bet with KKs to play the entire hand OOP?

As I stated above, position will matter very little in an SPR 1.6 - 2.25 pot.

There are pros and cons to both flatting and 4betting. My guess is that it is probably close and dependent on villain moron levels.

Gprobablycan'tgotoofarwrongnomatterwhatyoudohere,i moG

People really need to stop this “rope them in when we have a monster but then play like a supernit because they never fold” routine. Like if we are so concerned that they’re going to fold, why not look down at AJs and jam it as a bluff?


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I agree. At the time, I wasn't thinking about V1 too much. However, a 5 bet from him would have been KK (10%), AA (90%).

That's a leak on my part. Thank you.

As a matter of fact, it does, and despite your signature, there are a lot of things that can go wrong.

I do hate to jump ahead, but since Jaykon seems to be slow rolling the flop, what is your nonstandard follow up on the flop with no ace, but with a least 1 Q-10, and perhaps a flush draw? Are you checking here again, or are you cbetting? I am going to assume when you flat, that unless V1 is a complete spaz, he is calling and V2 is getting incredible odds to close, while I agree with Jaykon that he is going to call everything he raised with except air.

I think I'd lean to donking any non-Ace flop, especially drawy ones. Even donking a totally dry flop wouldn't be horrible as there is better chance of getting V1 trapped in a raising war with V2. I'm only ever considering folding on an A high flop and maybe some craptastic flops like QJT; a lone Q/J/T isn't going to be enough for me.

Regarding V1 getting great odds to close the action preflop, he's only getting in the neighbourhood of 10:1 IO. Those are poor enough for me not to overworry here.

But I'm fence-sitting preflop. There are obviously a lotta good reasons to 4bet.

GcluelessNLnoobG

The problem is that a 4bet is perceived as very tight. So tight that we feel that we won’t get value from a hand even as strong as KK.

One solution would be to play AA and KK in a funky way to try and trick our opponents. (Cold calling? Jamming?)

Another solution is to 4bet wider. I like this solution a lot more.

Even a 4! to 90 is still more than 1/3 of the effective stack. Meaning that if the villain jams we have to call with our entire 4! range (we will always have the equity to call against the range). Just jam. Not even close

No, there’s 2 different effective stacks in this hand.
One guy has 360 (and we can make it 90/fold)
The other guy has 260 (and we have to call it off)

I've only folded KK 3 times preflop, and most certainly never for just $260. But I think you could make a case for having to fold once a reasonable person 5bets a cold 4bet (which was into multiple opponents) as this is pretty much AA 99% and a misread A4 1%. Against V2 we'd only be getting a little over 2:1, although he also might not be too reasonable so prolly can't fold.

GcluelessNLnoobG

If hero makes it 90 there is now like 150 in dead money. The original raiser can jam a lot more than AA profitably. Also, assuming this is 1/3, what is the range of hands that 4x a limper? A lot wider than AA (which is not a range). Like I said, easy jam by hero.

OK, I think that's enough discussion for the moment. There is some variety of thought in there, which just goes to show that there isn't any one way to play a hand well.

Anyway, Hero 4-bets to $125.
Limper says: "Aww, heeelll no!" and mucks.
V1 looks distressed and mucks after about a minute of looking around and thinking.

V2 then pauses ... and makes a speech about how the rest of his money might as well go in the pot, then leans forward while he pushes his stack in - obviously very engaged.

V2 shoves for $90 more. Pot $531

Hero?

Seems like a snap call, but the speech and the tell caused me to stop for a moment to think.

Just so you know, I am capable of big laydowns, even when getting great odds. I'm also capable of calling with A high to big bets. It all depends ...

I’m all in

Snappity snap snap
You didn't go to the casino to fold

I’m putting him on Ace King of clubs!

Missed this post. Yes, 1/3 NL. My image depends on how well someone knows me. V1 probably assumes I'm a nit. V2 knows better, but probably assumes I have a hand.

With all due respect, I am seldom to never flatting KK+ OOP. Now, after going through the replies so far, that may very well change - if conditions seem right. The problem (and it's a big one) is that flatting a 3-bet OOP looks very strong when coming from someone the others think is a winning player and has the tendency to dry up the action, unless they hit hard.

How is this even a question? You have to call, even if he flips over AA before you act

I think I understand.

For players capable of putting you on a hand and acting accordingly, you seriously consider flatting a 3-bet. For players that just like gambling, get sticky with their hand, or don't read past the end of their nose, you generally 4-bet.

Do I have that right?

90 more into 530. You’re almost getting odds to set mine. He could have the other combo of KK? Just call it off yo!

Pot size in your description is weird. Is the pot $265 and $135 to call? So we’re getting around 3:1 on a call?
I’m still calling. He can sometimes have QQ, or just be looking to gamble. Wouldn’t put too much stock in live reads when the price is amazing and we hold the second best hand.

+1 rarely like flats pre but this is the spot

Yes.

I just love that in 2021, with all the technology that we have available, we have a 3 page thread on what to do with KK for 85 big blinds


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Getting ~3-1 to call after putting in ~50% stack with 2nd best starting hand vs. loose LAG ..... call.

With 6 combos of AA, if we give him only 2 combos of QQ, the math says call. There is also 1 combo of KK.

You'd also think that someone who has poker all figured out would be able to use the technology available to them in 2021 to turn off their annoying Tapatalk signature.