Quote:
Originally Posted by zxing
Thanks for taking the time to make a couple of very good responses to my question, Gobbledygeek. Although it was a straddled pot which cut stacks in half and most of the money went in postflop, I agree with your statement above, which is why this hand continues to bother me.
You responded earlier that you advocate not 3betting. Why exactly, if we know Mike is calling with almost his entire range? 3betting gets more money in the pot, plus by folding out any other players, dramatically increases our equity in the hand.
Assuming we just call preflop, and assuming the whale comes along on the button, what is your plan on later streets? Call three streets on this flop if Mike leads, assuming turn and river bricks? Two streets? Call flop and reevaluate turn? Given villain's image, we're probably facing at least two pot sized bets postflop. Of course, all this assumes whale shows no aggression postflop. I think we all agree that if Mike bets, we call, and whale raises, it's an easy fold.
As I played the hand, do you fold to the flop shove? Fold to the preflop 4bet? Call the 4bet with the intention of setmining?
Appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions, Gobbledygeek. You're one of the best posters on this forum, and your advice has been very helpful to me.
I'll admit I'm not really incredibly comfortable playing deep and it's totally possible my thoughts on the matter are misguided.
I will say a lot might depend on our image. If we're 3betting / 4betting every other hand, generating lottsa action, yada yada yada, then things might differ quite a lot in what Villain's are willing to get 300bbs+ in against us both preflop and postflop.
For myself, when stacks start getting deep, it's really just about seeing a flop and going from there. Unless we're able to limp/reraise or 3bet to a huge amount where we're able to setup an SPR HU where we can comfortably stack off postflop, then I really don't see the point of raising (especially considering that I personally think stacking off preflop with KK when deep is horrible).
Now some will say that we miss immediate value here just flatting, and that is definitely true if they are willing to call a 3bet with inferior hands in order to see a flop. And others will say that we can even win a lot of decent pots with inferior hands with aggression here (such as 3betting light and taking down a lot of pots postflop with a cbet). And I think those points are worth considering. However, I'm not convinced this method is more profitable / preferable to just seeing a flop in position and going from there, especially if we can trap a whale in the hand too. There are 3 more streets still to come after the flop (lots of time to get value if we see fit, imo), where we'll be in position and be able to see the flop texture / action, and hopefully this will give us decent information to decide how to proceed.
If we just flatted preflop and went 3ways, I'd simply proceed very cautiously and see how the hand plays out. I would probably call this rather ugly flop, get out of the way if the whale got aggro (especially if Villain stuck around). I'd re-evaluate on the turn, probably sticking around on blanks. And finally do a final re-evaluation on the river. If we're up against AA, we're definitely going to lose some money, but there's no reason to lose 300bb stacks. Keep in mind that even Villain with AA can easily slowdown postflop on lots of runouts; it's not as if he's going to bomb/bomb/bomb every time.
The key thing for me here is that a 3bet preflop (especially if we have a tight nitty image, which really is an image we should probably have playing typical short/medium stack poker since it is the most profitable route, imo) can easily turn our hand face up while at the same time setting up an SPR where stacks can easily be played for. This is something we want to do with a hand that most likely will remain as one pair?
But, that's just my take on it. My guess is that deep stacked play at these lower limits can be approached from wildly different directions, and my direction is certainly from one extreme end of things (i.e. the extremely passive end). I don't believe I have a handle on it even remotely as close as I do on shorter stacked games and it's admittedly a work in progress, one I might really be out to lunch on.
GcluelessdeepstacknoobG
Last edited by gobbledygeek; 12-08-2014 at 06:20 PM.