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Old 11-30-2014, 02:36 AM   #26
ibimon
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Result?
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:02 PM   #27
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

OP, what was the result??
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:36 PM   #28
gobbledygeek
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Maybe I'm misreading the OP totally different than everyone else, but the two hand examples where Villain "overplays" hands was against the whale, whereas the hand against the ABC player he actually took a very conservative line.

I actually don't find the preflop 3bet very obvious and would have probably just flatted the original raise this deep with KK, although admittedly our image / history / 3bet tendencies might play into this. We're also sorta cool with inviting the whale along and going 3ways in position.

Ghe'splayingyoudifferentlythanthewhale,methinksG
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:46 PM   #29
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

a laggy reg cares about what you hold only. Meaning what does he think your 3 bet/call range is, and more importantly does he think your ever folding anything other than the AK/AQ portion of that range?

I think this is a fold as played. I think 5 bet jamming pre is the play against this kind of player because of this exact reason. He's dictating the play to you for your whole stack. Your left playing a guessing game. He can have JJ just as easy as TT or T9s and he knows you know that.

Most of the time if a lag knows your big pair heavy and puts in a huge over bet like this he's going to be value heavy.

The exception of course is if he has reason to think you will fold/not stack off 300+ bb's w/ one pair. Your decision has to be based on what he thinks of you at this exact moment.(and even though he has JJ a ton here, I still find a fold and never ever tell him or anyone what I folded)

edit- also wanted to say I like 5 betting because this guy seems to have enough gamble to gii w/ AK and possibly QQ. Put him in a position to make the massive mistake, not vice versa, which is what happened.

and yes AA vs KK is a cooler against described villain imo

Last edited by patchohare; 12-03-2014 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:22 PM   #30
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Have you seen him 3- and 4-bet at all? The decision is really sensitive to his 4b range. We need ~40% equity to call. If his range is AA, KK, and half the QQ combos, this is a fold. If it's TT-AA, it becomes a call. If he can ever show up with hands like 77 or AK, it's definitely a call. My gut is that we can't possibly fold to this Villain here when we consider that he can get really aggro, he can spew, and we're underrepped. But we're not really crushing any realistic ranges for him.

I also think it's worth thinking about flatting pf to keep the whale in the hand; we miss a ton of value when the 3b folds around. It depends on how much of Money Mike's opening range he's going to continue with, and whether or not the whale is capable of cold-calling 3 bets light.
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Old 12-04-2014, 01:41 PM   #31
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

I'm guessing V showed AA, OP tilted since and left poker forever
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Old 12-04-2014, 01:43 PM   #32
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibimon View Post
I'm guessing V showed AA, OP tilted since and left poker forever
Nice troll +1
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Old 12-04-2014, 05:15 PM   #33
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Thumbs up Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
Don't really see how you can fold if description is right.

Just construct a range of what 4bets and ships this flop. That's your answer.
I put him at jj+ and ajs+. Its exactly 50-50 equity. I agree with PokerDharma that sets would go for a check raise. I think its less likely he just open shoves a set when its not super likely he has those hands in his 4bet range.

So calling 800 to win 1200 coupled with a low SPR situation I think you can call.

Preflop I have no idea, need to work on that area myself.

Where did this guy go back to Asia?
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:31 PM   #34
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

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Originally Posted by Sunnyvale View Post
I put him at jj+ and ajs+. Its exactly 50-50 equity. I agree with PokerDharma that sets would go for a check raise. I think its less likely he just open shoves a set when its not super likely he has those hands in his 4bet range.

So calling 800 to win 1200 coupled with a low SPR situation I think you can call.

Preflop I have no idea, need to work on that area myself.

Where did this guy go back to Asia?
Do you really think he even considers check/raising a set on a T98 board?

risking a free card in this spot is absolutely insane! You hate ~ half the deck ott, and then what do you on a 7 J Q or K-A if you get heat? (even a call)

do you then bet/call if raised? Do you check/call down? check/shove? If flop checks through and you lead one of these cards ott and are flatted, how do you play blank rivers?

How do you play running's or running paint? Are you ever folding?

In a pot of this size w/ a soaking wet board it would be a sin to try and check raise imo. I can say w/ 100% certainty that if I was checked to in this spot I would be checking back all my one pair hands against this villain.

Would you be betting KK here if checked to? And if so are you bet/calling off?
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Old 12-05-2014, 02:04 AM   #35
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

The hands listed as history don't help much. Is he getting !3 a lot? Have you !3 him yet/often? This is much more important. If he hasn't gotten !3 all night I put him squarely on AA/KK afraid of JJ or QQ sucking out hence the flop shove. If OP has !3 Vil a ton snap, better yet !5. I'd guess he hasn't been !3 too much and got AA.
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Old 12-05-2014, 04:06 AM   #36
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Results

Edit: more info would be nice if its accurate...
Some significant Qs have been asked imo

Last edited by tmacTheorySSAnne; 12-05-2014 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 12-05-2014, 04:45 PM   #37
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by patchohare View Post
Do you really think he even considers check/raising a set on a T98 board?

risking a free card in this spot is absolutely insane! You hate ~ half the deck ott, and then what do you on a 7 J Q or K-A if you get heat? (even a call)


Ok I hear you about the check raise, Im on my phone I have to look at the hand again on my laprop but I think you might be right.

Sent from my LGLS740 using 2+2 Forums
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Old 12-06-2014, 04:42 PM   #38
zxing
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Thanks so much for the feedback everyone. Some really good advice here.

In response to a few questions:

Table is pretty loose-passive so villain hasn't really 3bet or been 3bet. Also game has only been running for a couple hours, so not many hands have been played. In addition, hero has 3bet villain's open once. Hero had AK and flopped a flush draw and took it down with a cbet.

In response to those that say don't 3bet here, that seems super results oriented. We're so deep against a villain who's very likely to call a 3bet with most of his opening range, I don't see why we would ever flat here. Flatting misses way to much value. Yes, flatting might keep the whale in, but if we flat and it goes 3 or more ways to the flop, how comfortable are we in getting heaps in on a board like Q9645? In a 3bet pot though, I feel much better getting in stacks on such a board in a 3bet pot, since villain's ranges for stacking off are narrower (and also weaker and much heavier on TPTK type hands) in addition to the SPR being lower. If we don't 3bet, it seems to me that we're essentially pot controlling all three streets. Against the fish at this level of play, that's leaving way too much value on the table.

In response to those that say 5bet, my question is why? Now we look so strong that it's hard to get value from most of villain's 4betting range (assuming it's not just AA and KK). We're folding out almost everything. Also, what do we do if Villain jams all in on top? Surely we don't feel good calling at all, even against "Money Mike." Mediocre LAGs at this level frequently spew, but very very rarely for stacks of this size. I just don't ever see this guy getting it in preflop with QQ here.

Based on these reasons, I flatted preflop, purposely underrepping my hand a bit and intending to get stacks in on good flops and turns.

Results:
Spoiler:


I would still like to get more feedback though, as part of me still says that the optimal line is different.
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Old 12-06-2014, 05:26 PM   #39
tmacTheorySSAnne
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Before I look @ results:
I thought Gobbledy made a good point about the hands
Played by villain first time I read thread.
Now that Ive read the posted hand a second time I felt
Like id fold
Then I thought villain can think this flop doesnt smash
Our range at all; he could have qq or could be turning
Aa into a bluff for a call on this board. Obv he can have
More hands in his range
Villains a weird competent lag/passive(postflop[ except vs fish and being
Very competent and savy where one should be in taking advantage of
The image he's built for himself])

Fold
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:39 PM   #40
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

I am an advocate of getting it all in preflop. I think your idea of keeping in the lower part of his range may be working against you more than you think. Even if he did have some hand like JJ-QQ I think he's a lot less likely to stack off on the flop when you're ahead than he is preflop. And how comfortable is an Ace high board going to be? He might be ahead with AK and if he has one of the lower pocket pairs he may bluff at you getting you off the winner or may not give you any action. I reiterate what was said in a post before me. As played you are now in a position to make all the mistakes especially against this villain.
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Old 12-07-2014, 11:49 AM   #41
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

the reads on V that you listed basically have no relevance to this hand. you called his 4-bet. he knows you have a big hand, and considering the texture of the board wants it in now. i'm sorry but chalking this up to being a cooler is ridiculous. you think he doesn't know what his image is? i'd say his splashiness paid off.
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:26 AM   #42
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

I think you played it fine. I'm never folding KK vs. a guy named "Money Mike" without an A on the flop. Would have put in another raise pre tho.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:08 PM   #43
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

FWIW, getting in 300+bbs preflop with KK versus AA is not a cooler against the vast majority of the player pool at this level.

GimoG
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Old 12-08-2014, 05:45 PM   #44
zxing
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
FWIW, getting in 300+bbs preflop with KK versus AA is not a cooler against the vast majority of the player pool at this level.

GimoG
Thanks for taking the time to make a couple of very good responses to my question, Gobbledygeek. Although it was a straddled pot which cut stacks in half and most of the money went in postflop, I agree with your statement above, which is why this hand continues to bother me.

You responded earlier that you advocate not 3betting. Why exactly, if we know Mike is calling with almost his entire range? 3betting gets more money in the pot, plus by folding out any other players, dramatically increases our equity in the hand.

Assuming we just call preflop, and assuming the whale comes along on the button, what is your plan on later streets? Call three streets on this flop if Mike leads, assuming turn and river bricks? Two streets? Call flop and reevaluate turn? Given villain's image, we're probably facing at least two pot sized bets postflop. Of course, all this assumes whale shows no aggression postflop. I think we all agree that if Mike bets, we call, and whale raises, it's an easy fold.

As I played the hand, do you fold to the flop shove? Fold to the preflop 4bet? Call the 4bet with the intention of setmining?

Appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions, Gobbledygeek. You're one of the best posters on this forum, and your advice has been very helpful to me.
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:15 PM   #45
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Re: KK in 4bet pot 300BBs deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by zxing View Post
Thanks for taking the time to make a couple of very good responses to my question, Gobbledygeek. Although it was a straddled pot which cut stacks in half and most of the money went in postflop, I agree with your statement above, which is why this hand continues to bother me.

You responded earlier that you advocate not 3betting. Why exactly, if we know Mike is calling with almost his entire range? 3betting gets more money in the pot, plus by folding out any other players, dramatically increases our equity in the hand.

Assuming we just call preflop, and assuming the whale comes along on the button, what is your plan on later streets? Call three streets on this flop if Mike leads, assuming turn and river bricks? Two streets? Call flop and reevaluate turn? Given villain's image, we're probably facing at least two pot sized bets postflop. Of course, all this assumes whale shows no aggression postflop. I think we all agree that if Mike bets, we call, and whale raises, it's an easy fold.

As I played the hand, do you fold to the flop shove? Fold to the preflop 4bet? Call the 4bet with the intention of setmining?

Appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions, Gobbledygeek. You're one of the best posters on this forum, and your advice has been very helpful to me.
I'll admit I'm not really incredibly comfortable playing deep and it's totally possible my thoughts on the matter are misguided.

I will say a lot might depend on our image. If we're 3betting / 4betting every other hand, generating lottsa action, yada yada yada, then things might differ quite a lot in what Villain's are willing to get 300bbs+ in against us both preflop and postflop.

For myself, when stacks start getting deep, it's really just about seeing a flop and going from there. Unless we're able to limp/reraise or 3bet to a huge amount where we're able to setup an SPR HU where we can comfortably stack off postflop, then I really don't see the point of raising (especially considering that I personally think stacking off preflop with KK when deep is horrible).

Now some will say that we miss immediate value here just flatting, and that is definitely true if they are willing to call a 3bet with inferior hands in order to see a flop. And others will say that we can even win a lot of decent pots with inferior hands with aggression here (such as 3betting light and taking down a lot of pots postflop with a cbet). And I think those points are worth considering. However, I'm not convinced this method is more profitable / preferable to just seeing a flop in position and going from there, especially if we can trap a whale in the hand too. There are 3 more streets still to come after the flop (lots of time to get value if we see fit, imo), where we'll be in position and be able to see the flop texture / action, and hopefully this will give us decent information to decide how to proceed.

If we just flatted preflop and went 3ways, I'd simply proceed very cautiously and see how the hand plays out. I would probably call this rather ugly flop, get out of the way if the whale got aggro (especially if Villain stuck around). I'd re-evaluate on the turn, probably sticking around on blanks. And finally do a final re-evaluation on the river. If we're up against AA, we're definitely going to lose some money, but there's no reason to lose 300bb stacks. Keep in mind that even Villain with AA can easily slowdown postflop on lots of runouts; it's not as if he's going to bomb/bomb/bomb every time.

The key thing for me here is that a 3bet preflop (especially if we have a tight nitty image, which really is an image we should probably have playing typical short/medium stack poker since it is the most profitable route, imo) can easily turn our hand face up while at the same time setting up an SPR where stacks can easily be played for. This is something we want to do with a hand that most likely will remain as one pair?

But, that's just my take on it. My guess is that deep stacked play at these lower limits can be approached from wildly different directions, and my direction is certainly from one extreme end of things (i.e. the extremely passive end). I don't believe I have a handle on it even remotely as close as I do on shorter stacked games and it's admittedly a work in progress, one I might really be out to lunch on.

GcluelessdeepstacknoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 12-08-2014 at 06:20 PM.
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