KK 225 BB deep PF 5 bet sizing - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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Villain Asian late 20's smart kid. Says he plays online etc.

V has been opening a wide range from most positions. I have mostly not tangled other than 3b him fairly regularly and fairly light. He has usually folded pre or OTF.

Hero fairly active opening in mid to late position a fairly wide range which also hasn't gone unnoticed.

V $450 hero covers.

V opens UTG+ 1 for $10 folds to hero.

Hero 3b to $35 w/ KK. In line w/ prev 3bs.

V thinks for a minute then 4b to $85.

Hero?

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01-19-2014 , 03:52 PM

wewa925

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,039

220ish. shove any safe flops.

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01-19-2014 , 03:57 PM

Neutrogena

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 462

Number of options available, but this is a pretty black and white situation.

What is your question?

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01-19-2014 , 04:00 PM

fatmanonguitar

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,834

Are you IP or in the blinds?

This is a great spot bc V is probably fed up with your 3-bets and is playing back. I think there is merit to flatting IP and keeping his range wide but given Hx, I think I prefer a standard 5-bet to 210-220 and hope he sees it as a leveling war.

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01-19-2014 , 04:00 PM

TampaGrinder38

The Darvin Moon of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 236

I don't hate flatting and playing PF IP, honestly. If he knows you've been 3! light and adjusting to him, he's likely doing the same to you, although I don't think he's going to be 4! "light" here, but IMO his range is not just KK+ AKs like a usual 4! at 1/2 would be. JJ+ AQs+ might be reasonable range for him at this point. 5-betting isn't a good option IMO, because you're either going to win $85, instead of much more (flop depending) or just get in bad when he 6-bet shoves..

If you believe you have him crushed and are trying to induce a 6! shove jacks, queens, or AKs (super unlikely..) I guess sizing should be like $210-$225.

TLDR; flat and stack him post.

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01-19-2014 , 04:02 PM

Neutrogena

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 462

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanonguitar

5-bet is unnecessary given SPR at around 2.5 if we flat.

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01-19-2014 , 04:29 PM

cAmmAndo

The Situation

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,727

Hero is OTB.

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01-19-2014 , 04:55 PM

slimshady1999

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 4,313

Either flat or 5bet small to $140

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01-19-2014 , 04:58 PM

peckx063

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 412

I would raise an amount that let's him think he has FE in a shove. He made it 50 more so I'm making it 100 on top and letting him think if he 6-bet shoves for 265 more I could go away.

A flat is wildly better if we have AA and not KK here. When an A flops its like impossible to make any money. He'll check/fold his ppairs and if he doesn't we'll give him credit for an A anyway and fold. I mean ideally he has JJ and the flop runs out 972, but if he has JJ don't you think we can get him to shove pre?

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01-19-2014 , 05:15 PM

#10

TampaGrinder38

The Darvin Moon of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckx063

but if he has JJ don't you think we can get him to shove pre?

In all reality, I don't think any "smart/online player" V is 6 bet shoving jacks, or even queens, pre 225 BB deep.

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01-19-2014 , 05:15 PM

#11

Neutrogena

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 462

In agreement. I think 5-bet will fold out all but AA.

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01-19-2014 , 05:18 PM

#12

peckx063

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 412

Quote:

Originally Posted by TampaGrinder38

In all reality, I don't think any "smart/online player" V is 6 bet shoving jacks, or even queens, pre 225 BB deep.

Sent from my C5120 using 2+2 Forums

I get way more KK vs JJ AIPFs when I'm online than when I'm playing live.

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01-19-2014 , 05:24 PM

#13

Neutrogena

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 462

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckx063

I get way more KK vs JJ AIPFs when I'm online than when I'm playing live.

That's because live doesn't require balance.

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01-19-2014 , 05:24 PM

#14

Duke0424

self-banned

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,362

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckx063

I get way more KK vs JJ AIPFs when I'm online than when I'm playing live.

That doesn't mean online player come to live and get 200bb in pre with JJ

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01-19-2014 , 05:27 PM

#15

peckx063

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 412

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke0424

That doesn't mean online player come to live and get 200bb in pre with JJ

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I just don't see how him being an online player makes him less likely to shove with JJ. If anything, he's more familiar with how 3-bet/4-bet/5-bet wars go and can level himself into a shove easier.

I'd try to get this kid to shove with worse and him being an online player doesn't scare me into thinking he's folding everything but AA to a 5-bet here.

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01-19-2014 , 05:30 PM

#16

Neutrogena

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 462

If villain doesn't think hero is 5-betting with wider than KK+, he has no reason to 6-bet shove or call.

Unless of course he's not good.

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01-19-2014 , 05:31 PM

#17

Duke0424

self-banned

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 13,362

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckx063

It doesn't make him less likely to shove JJ. But the dynamic is different live and he should know that you're probably not 4betting light because no one does that.

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01-19-2014 , 05:41 PM

#18

TampaGrinder38

The Darvin Moon of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckx063

Most 1/2 "online kids" are most likely "decent" 25 or 50NL players where getting it in with jacks pre for 50 bucks is meh, but live dynamics are wayyy different. Rec players are more likely to 3! shove Jacks than a thinking player, which I wouldn't mind snapping off, but assuming this V is even a decent live player, IMO there's almost no chance he's 6! shoving worse than KK+ for $450.
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01-19-2014 , 05:48 PM

#19

peckx063

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 412

Quote:

Originally Posted by TampaGrinder38

Given the dynamic of our incessant 3-betting of him I think he can level himself into it. His 4-bet has a natural light range associated with it and we both know that so he can definitely interpret our 5-bet as an attack on his apparent adjustment of opening up his 4-bet range against a light 3-bettor.

Without that history I think this is an easy flat but I think our 5-bet won't get credit as only being AA/KK in this spot.

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01-19-2014 , 05:53 PM

#20

wewa925

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,039

well I guess we should fold to the 4bet then. seriously, 5bet and lets try to get it in asap.

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01-19-2014 , 05:57 PM

#21

TampaGrinder38

The Darvin Moon of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckx063

Without that history I think this is an easy flat but I think our 5-bet won't get credit as only being AA/KK in this spot.

Concensus is that this def a flat, but in the case we do 5! given stack sizes, what type of range could V assign us? SPR is going to be extremely small OTF setting up a shove OTF, so our range doesn't consist of many non-value hands.. QQ+ & AKs is THE ABSOLUTE WIDEST we could have, and any decent player is going to be able to play perfectly against us situationally.

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01-19-2014 , 06:00 PM

#22

Neutrogena

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 462

Quote:

Originally Posted by wewa925

well I guess we should fold to the 4bet then. seriously, 5bet and lets try to get it in asap.

Why would we fold to 4bet?

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01-19-2014 , 06:10 PM

#23

TampaGrinder38

The Darvin Moon of LLSNL

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 236

Quote:

Originally Posted by wewa925

well I guess we should fold to the 4bet then. seriously, 5bet and lets try to get it in asap.

Folding (lol) and 5 betting IMO is just -EV, do you really expect to get shoved on by worse? I can count on one hand how many times this has ever happened vs a decent player, zero.

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01-19-2014 , 06:11 PM

#24

beauvanlaanen

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 12,487

Make it $200 and rip it on the flop

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01-19-2014 , 08:02 PM

#25

daniel9861

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,389

I think either $140 or a shove are the best options. I like a shove to make it look like AK and get called by AK/QQ/JJ. If we make it $140 he's most probably just going to flat those hands. $200+ looks too strong as we are obv stacking off and will put him in shove or fold mode with him folding most of the time.

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