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Old 03-01-2017, 07:20 PM   #1
Mr.Shadow
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Heart KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

This hand happened about 30 minutes after Villain sat down two seats to my left. I have about $350

Villain 1: Young body builder type guy around my age. Talking a lot of smack about other players being bad that aren't at the table. I get the feeling he's extremely Agro and filled with a lot of FPS. Just a cocky SOB so I knew I had to watch out for this dude. At this point I think he is TAG because I haven't played long enough with him yet. He has about $400


On to the hand

2 limp in LP i'm on the Button and I raise to $18 with KJ Villian1 calls in the BB everyone else folds. HU


Flop QT4($42)

V1 Checks I bet $25 V1 Raises to $90

I'm already thinking he is FOS
What's my next move?
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:39 PM   #2
SuperGlue
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Get it in.
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:45 PM   #3
PTMHM
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Kindly inform the dealer that you would like to bet all of your wagering units.
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:02 PM   #4
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Two schools of thought.

1) Jam - because we have K high

2) Call - and call/shove any turn because we think he will bet any turn and we still have loads of equity even on bricks
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:29 PM   #5
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Is this the proper play against this villain? or any villain HU? Are we doing this when we know he has a set? no right? no FE?
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:07 PM   #6
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

First pump jam. I prefer the jam over call/call off or jam any turn for a couple of reasons.

1) We fold out equity from other hands
2) We get value from hands where a ton of turns that make our hand shuts them down like an A or a
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:31 PM   #7
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Shove.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:32 PM   #8
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkbird88 View Post
First pump jam. I prefer the jam over call/call off or jam any turn for a couple of reasons.

1) We fold out equity from other hands
2) We get value from hands where a ton of turns that make our hand shuts them down like an A or a KJs - OESFD vs Aggro
Preach! We actually may fold out the hand with the best equity against us - Axhh of hearts. Especially since we block the better Axhh combos which would consider a call.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:46 PM   #9
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Shove, your equity is the best OTF that you will have this hand until you hit your draw.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:52 PM   #10
MikeStarr
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

I haven't seen an easier hand to play is some time. Just shove your chips in. I dont really care if he calls or not to be honest.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:59 PM   #11
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Going all in is a huge overbet but you're maximizing fold equity and you have so many outs that it'd be a sin to not capitalize on it. I know a lot of people on this board go back and forth on whether a nut flush draw folds on the flop but i sincerely believe with such an overbet you could fold out the better flush draw.
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:02 PM   #12
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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Originally Posted by donkbird88 View Post
First pump jam. I prefer the jam over call/call off or jam any turn for a couple of reasons.

1) We fold out equity from other hands
2) We get value from hands where a ton of turns that make our hand shuts them down like an A or a KJs - OESFD vs Aggro
Point 1 is dumb. If they're folding than they were almost certainly behind us in equity and we don't want them to fold. Still jamming though.

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Old 03-01-2017, 10:42 PM   #13
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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Point 1 is dumb. If they're folding than they were almost certainly behind us in equity and we don't want them to fold. Still jamming though.

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Nut flush draws beat us 60-40 on the flop. I agree it's not that likely, but I wouldn't say your point is incorrect.

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Last edited by PTMHM; 03-01-2017 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:54 PM   #14
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

I wish I could flop an open ended straight flush draw �� I'm all in with these stack sizes.
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:03 AM   #15
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

If villain is "good," the only value hands he should realistically have here are 44 and TT (if he prefers not 3! that hand from OOP) and occasionally QTs but that's a bit of a loose call from the BB (though fits the image/stereotype). He's not folding any of those hands to a jam.

Considering we block most of the large flush draws but none of the medium SC's, I actually think calling is best. We have so much equity here we actually want to keep him in the hand and let him blast off on the turn. There is very little air of his that we are behind, so why fold out everything we beat and isolate ourselves against his two-pair+.

The best case scenario is he has a hand like 87 and we call the flop and bunk the turn and he shoves, or we brick the turn and he jams and we call it off. The worst case scenario is he turns a pair and we call it off with between 19-21 outs or 41-45% equity.

So yah, on second thought my vote is utilize our position and range advantage and let villain hang himself.
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:23 AM   #16
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

100% trivial jam here.

The pot is $157. If we call the pot is $202 we have about $242 behind.

We have King high and if we brick the turn, seems likely villain is stuffing and we have to call it off with a draw with one card to go.

Happy to see this aggro fold the flop and we profit over $100 with zero sweat. Perfectly fine if they call it off too. Calling accomplishes neither.

If we had a made hand, the right play is to call and let villain hang himself. We don't, and could easily end up with King high on the turn facing a pot sized bet.
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:41 AM   #17
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
If villain is "good," the only value hands he should realistically have here are 44 and TT (if he prefers not 3! that hand from OOP) and occasionally QTs but that's a bit of a loose call from the BB (though fits the image/stereotype). He's not folding any of those hands to a jam.

Considering we block most of the large flush draws but none of the medium SC's, I actually think calling is best. We have so much equity here we actually want to keep him in the hand and let him blast off on the turn. There is very little air of his that we are behind, so why fold out everything we beat and isolate ourselves against his two-pair+.

The best case scenario is he has a hand like 87 and we call the flop and bunk the turn and he shoves, or we brick the turn and he jams and we call it off. The worst case scenario is he turns a pair and we call it off with between 19-21 outs or 41-45% equity.

So yah, on second thought my vote is utilize our position and range advantage and let villain hang himself.
Completely disagree with all of the above. This is all fine if we have a made hand, but we don't. The power of a hand like this is that it allows us to be super aggro OTF because we have an equity edge against MOST of a V's range here. Adding the fold equity turns this from a hand slightly ahead OTF to an absolute monster of a hand. Make no mistake, we want the fold. Even getting the fold 20% of the time turns this from a +EV play into a hugely +EV play.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:12 AM   #18
donkbird88
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
If villain is "good," the only value hands he should realistically have here are 44 and TT (if he prefers not 3! that hand from OOP) and occasionally QTs but that's a bit of a loose call from the BB (though fits the image/stereotype). He's not folding any of those hands to a jam.

Considering we block most of the large flush draws but none of the medium SC's, I actually think calling is best. We have so much equity here we actually want to keep him in the hand and let him blast off on the turn. There is very little air of his that we are behind, so why fold out everything we beat and isolate ourselves against his two-pair+.

The best case scenario is he has a hand like 8KJs - OESFD vs Aggro7KJs - OESFD vs Aggro and we call the flop and bunk the turn and he shoves, or we brick the turn and he jams and we call it off. The worst case scenario is he turns a pair and we call it off with between 19-21 outs or 41-45% equity.

So yah, on second thought my vote is utilize our position and range advantage and let villain hang himself.
What's our plan if we call and the turn bricks? You say the worst case scenario is that he turns a pair but the worse case scenario is we call, turn bricks off and he jams. That's something like 250ish to win 450 so we need 55% equity. Against AQ we have 39% against QT 33% and 44 or TT we have 30%. On the flop we have more equity than AQ and QT and a slight -EV vs sets. Just get it in.

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Old 03-02-2017, 01:19 AM   #19
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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Originally Posted by donkbird88 View Post
Point 1 is dumb. If they're folding than they were almost certainly behind us in equity and we don't want them to fold. Still jamming though.

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If they have KQo, they're behind in equity and we want them to fold.

It's not unusual at all that you want someone who is behind to fold.

The pot is a million dollars. You have 60% equity. You bet 100 dollars.

Would you rather have 600K or a million?

Or you 5-bet jam TT against AKo. You're ahead and hoping for a fold.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:19 AM   #20
johnnyBuz
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Villain is not x/r JJ or 99 here. He is x/r AQ+. So if you want to argue that our flop jam will fold out his 12 combos of AQ then okay fine. I don't believe it will, especially if he has the A, but that's beside the point so let's move past that.

Villain's x/r range is polarized to nutted hands and weak draws/air that we dominate. We have zero FE against his value range, so what does shoving accomplish? We are never folding our hand, so let's take the line that maximizes our EV vs. his range.

If villain has a hand like J9 we are an 80% favorite. If he is going to shove any turn with that hand, why would we want to fold him out on the flop when we dominate him? Similarly, if villain has a hand like 98 we are an 83/17 favorite; versus 87 we are an 85/15 favorite. Even a hand like 54 we have 65% equity against and we don't want him to fold.

And if he's got total air and will bomb the turn, then let's let him! If he magically turns a pair and jams and we brick the river then so be it. It doesn't change the fact that our line maximized EV rather than "taking down the pot on the flop."

It would be nice if someone in the shove flop crowd came back with some range analysis and EV implications supporting their position because I'm just not seeing the upside or benefit. Villain has massive RIO's with his weak flushes which you guys are neglecting in your analysis.

We need 34% equity to call off the turn jam. We have 30% vs. his sets and 35% vs. his two pair. So I kick it back to you guys to show how isolating ourselves against just his value range + NFD's is the superior play.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:39 AM   #21
Buster65
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
If villain has a hand like J9 we are an 80% favorite. If he is going to shove any turn with that hand, why would we want to fold him out on the flop when we dominate him? Similarly, if villain has a hand like 98 we are an 83/17 favorite; versus 87 we are an 85/15 favorite. Even a hand like 54 we have 65% equity against and we don't want him to fold.
You really believe he is check raising any of this crap? No offense, man, but this is a serious leak.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:45 AM   #22
johnnyBuz
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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You really believe he is check raising any of this crap? No offense, man, but this is a serious leak.
Uhhhhh .... what?

Did you read the OP and the live read on villain?
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:46 AM   #23
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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You really believe he is check raising any of this crap? No offense, man, but this is a serious leak.
98hh and 54hh seem totally fine and in line with hands aggro dbags might c/r
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:50 AM   #24
Buster65
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Did you read the OP and the live read on villain?
Yeah, essentially what the live read boiled down to was Pop read since he hasn't played with him much. He "thinks" he might be a dbag and aggro and FPS, but he is treating him as TAG.

A TAG is not x/raising this crap.
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:17 AM   #25
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Re: KJs - OESFD vs Aggro

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Yeah, essentially what the live read boiled down to was Pop read since he hasn't played with him much. He "thinks" he might be a dbag and aggro and FPS, but he is treating him as TAG.

A TAG is not x/raising this crap.
Why wouldn't a TAG x/r a weak flush draw? I probably call them most of the time and x/r weaker draws, like 98s/AJs/AhJx, but they should be x/r some of the time, probably.
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