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Old 08-19-2017, 02:44 PM   #1
ahsfl
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KJo in CO, too loose?

1/2, $400 effective

Hero: Strong image, hands shown done have been very strong, only lost one showdown so far but mucked.

V1: MP1. Never played with before. MAWG looks pretty rough. Has spent the majority of his time either firing big bets or complaining that because we are in IL he can't have his phone at the table.
V2: BTN. Decent regular that plays on the loose side.

MP limps
V1 limps
Hero makes it $12
MP1 folds
BTN calls
V1 calls

Pot 41
Flop:
K82r

V1 checks
Hero bets $25
BTN folds
V1 calls

Pot 91
Turn T completes the rainbow
V1 checks
Hero checks (for pot control, first question is should I be possibly firing here to get some value out of hands like A8, AT, or K9 and potentially get a free river)

River
4

V1 bets $25
Hero: ???

My read at this point on V1 is that he is FoS a lot of times here and possibly even shows up with a weak suited K that he couldn't get away from. I can't see with this line there being AK, KQ in his range even though KT seems possible. Feel free to comment on any portion of the hand.
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Old 08-19-2017, 02:52 PM   #2
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Bet 45 on turn since T improves some hands in v's range. AP easy call on the river but expect to lose like half the time.


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Old 08-19-2017, 02:52 PM   #3
QuantumSurfer
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

I'm ok with either leading or checking back turn. I think if I check, I fire river and if I bet turn, I check back river... usually. Lately I've been going for 3 streets w/ TP but there's also been an increase in recs in my player pool recently.

His river lead looks like a weak probe/ overly optimistic bluff. I'd raise/fold between $60-70 to try to get weaker Ks, 8x and 99-TT to sigh call.
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Old 08-19-2017, 02:56 PM   #4
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Small hand, small pot. Call the river, you're good wayyyy more than ~18% of the time. WP


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Old 08-19-2017, 05:12 PM   #5
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Bet trn or minraise river
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Old 08-19-2017, 05:17 PM   #6
ahsfl
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DormantShark View Post
Small hand, small pot. Call the river, you're good wayyyy more than ~18% of the time. WP


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This has been a big leak for me, more typically with OP PP rather than this situation but wanted to make sure I wasn't playing too weak right in this spot. I hadn't considered the 3! on the end though that with my image and PF raise maybe I've got AK here. V showed down KQ and the play I saw from him after made that make a lot more sense.
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Old 08-19-2017, 05:54 PM   #7
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

I'd typically go 15 pre

AP flop is good

AP turn probably betting 45-55

AP river probably only calling, but we would betting more as a routine bet if V didn't donk
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:14 PM   #8
ahsfl
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Ok so now a few people have said to bet the turn. Knowing now that V doesn't understand bet sizing it would worry me as much but if I bet the turn and V is still confident and knows how to bet size I'm facing a potential 100+ bet into me on the river that I would think I have to fold to because there's no way I can jam. Am I wrong there?
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:32 PM   #9
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahsfl View Post
Ok so now a few people have said to bet the turn. Knowing now that V doesn't understand bet sizing it would worry me as much but if I bet the turn and V is still confident and knows how to bet size I'm facing a potential 100+ bet into me on the river that I would think I have to fold to because there's no way I can jam. Am I wrong there?


Not exactly sure what you are saying, but v isn't going to donk the river when you bet the turn with KQo unless for some reason he really really thinks he's missing value by letting you check.

If he bets a reasonable amount on the river after you bet turn yeah you have to fold because he has better than TP or he's a special kind of idiot and you don't know his play style anyway.



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Old 08-19-2017, 06:52 PM   #10
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Thinking that the turn check then call on the river gets me to showdown cheaper is what I meant.
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Old 08-19-2017, 07:12 PM   #11
Rhombo
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

In theory betting turn and checking river should yield a similar result to checking turn and calling/betting the river. If v is likely to stab the river or play back against you when you barrel the turn then the pot control is good here. But v is probably just a normal fish so I like the turn bet because some hands that call the turn do not call the river. Not really a huge difference between the two plays though


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Old 08-20-2017, 02:31 AM   #12
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

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Originally Posted by Rhombo View Post
In theory betting turn and checking river should yield a similar result to checking turn and calling/betting the river. If v is likely to stab the river or play back against you when you barrel the turn then the pot control is good here. But v is probably just a normal fish so I like the turn bet because some hands that call the turn do not call the river. Not really a huge difference between the two plays though


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Doesn't turn bet tend to stop a bluff while checking induces it? Two streets of value either way, just dependent on how bluffy/stationy player is.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:25 AM   #13
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Well played imo, now call.

You won't get three streets of value from a hand like K9 (if he even plays that) or a pp, and there aren't any draws to charge, so I see no reason whatsoever to bet the turn. You would be blowing up the the pot for no reason and value owning yourself against KQ, KT or a set. Why are people advocating betting the turn? Just check and valuebet the river (half pot or something, to get a call from a nonbeliever with 77) when checked to.
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Old 08-20-2017, 11:27 AM   #14
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

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Originally Posted by yummyhumanbrains View Post
Doesn't turn bet tend to stop a bluff while checking induces it? Two streets of value either way, just dependent on how bluffy/stationy player is.
Yeah I meant stab the river when you check turn, ****ty grammar from me.
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:40 PM   #15
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Turn check is very good, obviously always calling river
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:02 PM   #16
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

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Turn check is very good, obviously always calling river
This. Do you people just say the opposite thing that happens everytime for the sake of posting? If hero bet turn and got raised you all would say check.

Checking turn is totally fine and very standard.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:22 PM   #17
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

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Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
This. Do you people just say the opposite thing that happens everytime for the sake of posting? If hero bet turn and got raised you all would say check.

Checking turn is totally fine and very standard.
Both checking and betting is fine here. Both could be considered standard.

Board is super dry. So, if we get raised on turn. It's fairly trivial fold. Not going to get exploited easily from Villains over bluffing.



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Old 08-20-2017, 05:02 PM   #18
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DormantShark View Post
Small hand, small pot.
This is a very important concept.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:25 PM   #19
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

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Originally Posted by mikko View Post
Both checking and betting is fine here. Both could be considered standard.

Board is super dry. So, if we get raised on turn. It's fairly trivial fold. Not going to get exploited easily from Villains over bluffing.



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This is why I prefer, at 1/2, to barrel the turn. When we don't get raised, we can bet river and get extra value many times. The common response to that is "what does he call with that we beat on the river?", to which I just think about an average 1/2 player and how they call with all sorts of weird **** because they have no ****ing clue what they're doing.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:37 PM   #20
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

I think the turn play definitely depends on your opponent. Since you are now in position it makes life so much easier. What do you do if he raises the turn here when you bet? If he raises quite a bit then a check is fine and be willing to pretty much call any river bet. Think you can really only get two streets of value here with this hand anyways. River is a call in my opinion. I guess you COULD raise some frequency of the time but what worse hand really calls here? Some weaker kings? MAYBE a 10? who knows?

I like how you played it
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:38 PM   #21
mikko
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
This is why I prefer, at 1/2, to barrel the turn. When we don't get raised, we can bet river and get extra value many times. The common response to that is "what does he call with that we beat on the river?", to which I just think about an average 1/2 player and how they call with all sorts of weird **** because they have no ****ing clue what they're doing.
Added benefit when we bet turn vs passive players. Is we improve on river once in awhile. Allowing us to easily value bet.

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Old 08-20-2017, 07:15 PM   #22
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

I would make all your bets bigger

pre like $18
flop like $35
turn, I'm not checking, I'm betting $75 because he's weak. So, I bet
river, If he checks, I go to showdown and check behind, If he bets weak I call
If any of my bets are raised, .. well.., I reevaluate the situation.

Anyway, I think you'll be OK in this hand but as a side funny none about KJ what Tony G was saying. (this is very funny and you can see the video on YouTube) ..., Anyway, here you have it:

TonyG goes all-in for $600,000 with A2
villain calls with KJo and TonyG covers

TonyG: You played that hand as bad as you can. Your career is finished. You’re gone, gone .., gone!

TonyG: This is what you play? - You call with KJ? - Which school you have been to?
Ha, ha..ha.. Up and away! ..Up and away!,.. com-on! On your bike!, ...on your bike,.. haha ..haha

TonyG: Now, he doesn’t deserve any applause, he called with KJ. If you read my poker strategy I tell everyone: Never overplay KJ

Last edited by outdonked; 08-20-2017 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:24 PM   #23
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

If anything I was thinking the flop sizing could be smaller to get more middle pocket pair type hands to call. Preflop seems fine.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:26 PM   #24
mikko
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outdonked View Post
I would make all your bets bigger

pre like $18
flop like $35
turn, I'm not checking, I'm betting $75 because he's weak. So, I bet
river, If he checks, I go to showdown and check behind, If he bets weak I call

Anyway, I think you'll be OK in this hand but as a side funny none about KJ what Tony G was saying. (this is very funny and you can see the video on YouTube) ..., Anyway, here you have it:

TonyG: You played that hand as bad as you can. Your career is finished. You’re gone, gone .., gone!

TonyG: This is what you play? - You call with KJ? - Which school you have been to?
Ha, ha..ha.. Up and away! ..Up and away!,.. com-on! On your bike!, ...on your bike,.. haha ..haha

TonyG: Now, he doesn’t deserve any applause, he called with KJ. If you read my poker strategy I tell everyone: Never overplay KJ
After someone calls $18 pre, and $35 on flop. How can you deduce he is weak?

Betting smaller on flop. Actually gets calls from super wide range at 1/2. Risking less, while making more vs wider range.

Raising more pre, is some of the worse advice that is fairly standard in this forum.

$18 vs $12 in this specific spot does very little. As we are likely going multiway, with a hand that does not flop well.

We are likely checking behind on majority of flops.

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Old 08-20-2017, 07:34 PM   #25
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Re: KJo in CO, too loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikko View Post
Raising more pre, is some of the worse advice that is fairly standard in this forum.

We are likely checking behind on majority of flops.
We are not checking as long as we don't get resistance. I'm not saying KJo is a strong hand, I don't like it, but in general in this situation all becomes relative to villain's behavior. If he slowplay some big flopped hand .., well, ..,wtf?.. so be it. We take a note of that and look forward to trap him the next time. We put a X mark on his forehead.

On the other hand, the KJo is not a hand I would call a raise from a competent player from upfront. Without suitedness, most hands are not worth playing. A-K and A-Q are exceptions. But once you get down even to A-J, K-Q or KJ offsuit , the big cards alone are often not strong enough to justify a play by calling a raise. That's my way of thinking, in general, but it all depends, of course, .. wtf?

Last edited by outdonked; 08-20-2017 at 07:44 PM.
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