Complete opposite in the usual games I play. I agree under those assumptions that checking KJ in the blinds is best.

^ how do you guys treat underpairs below KJ in limping ranges? do you consider them being ahead or behind you? asking because technically even 22>KJ... and that's easily in limping ranges... so if you're raising KJ in the blinds, aren't you raising hands that you're behind of? when infact you're trying to get called by ranges that are behind you by raising there..?

How often does 77- make it to showdown as the best hand in a 4 way pot?

More often than K-high.

^ BINGO

K-high has much better chances to improve throughout the hand via pairing or draws

22 basically has to flop a set.

i think we're diverging from the issue at hand here.. our rationale to raise here in BB was "being ahead of everyone's limping ranges"... if a lot of those limping ranges contain small to medium pairs (and even Ax) which is highly probable, KJ is really not ahead of those ranges..

speaking of postflop, if you're really intending to play a "4 way pot" after raising KJo oop, i think it's better we don't discuss raising in the first place anyway because it's clearly bad, because your edge reduces significantly against 3 other random hands even if KJ is ahead pre..

but let's say it goes heads up with the whale, then i can understand your rationale of making it difficult for his 77- to go to showdown, given you're willing to barrel away even when you whiff...

so in an all-in situation, you're willing to take KJ over 77 although it's behind the latter because it can "improve throughout the hand via pairing or draws"?

That isn't the scenario we're talking about. We're discussion post flop playability, which small PPs have very little outside of flopping sets

bingo! we have a winner!

1. KJo will have top/2nd pair+ on the flop far far more often than 77
2. KJo will be able to barrel far far more turns than 77 can b/c of equity when behind.. it will often have 4-10 outs to top pair or gutter, whereas 77 will usually have exactly 2 outs when behind.

I'll take 77 IP vs. your KJo OOP any day of the week.

that's not the choice under discussion, is it?

Results?

Ya i think thread has run it's course

No, it's not, they're just changing the discussion as they go.

6betfold is wondering why someone would raise KJo OOP but wouldn't raise small PPs when technically small PPs have better all in equity. But the question in this hand isn't about shoving (or playing IP PPs vs OOP off suit Broadway's) it's about raising OOP in general, which big card hands have a better chance of making it to showdown because they have more flops/turns/rivers they can bet for value or barrel with equity when behind

I'm pretty sure we were discussing KJo being "ahead of the limpers' ranges" which includes hands like Ax and 77.

It appears that I misunderstood 6betfold's comment

^ I think you did. Thanks johnnyBuz.