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Old 06-13-2021, 01:46 AM   #1
texasranger47
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Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Playing 1/3, 300 spread limit hold em, 7 handed. Hero has $650 starting stack.

Only context is I've never played against the main villain (utg1). He literally just sat down; the chip carrier brought him chips during the turn action. Villain is $600 effective.

Hero has KdKs in bb. Utg1 limps, utg2, co limp. Hero raises to $25, adding 1bb for every limper to standard 5bb open. Only utg1 calls.

Flop ($62)
Qd 8c 6c. Hero c bet $30. Villain raises to $75. Hero calls with $550 behind.

Turn $212)
3d. X, bet $150, call, $400 behind.

River ($512)
6s. X, bet max 300. Hero...?

I know I made a mistake but I can't pinpoint where it went wrong. Feels like I went too passive after the check raise. With a limp call pre-flop, my immediate thought is 2-pair, set, or club draw. The continued aggression on later streets confused me, so by the river I think I'm basically bluff catching. In retrospect I think I want to GII on turn when it bricks? I find out Villain is a 2/5 player when he was called for a seat and walked off 30 minutes later, ha.

I would appreciate any insight into the line and how I should be thinking about this situation. Thanks guys.

Last edited by texasranger47; 06-13-2021 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 06-13-2021, 06:50 AM   #2
whorasaurus
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Looks ok, you are bluffcatching, and he still has a bunch of bluffs in his range here. It’s a call, and a snap fistpump call if you knew he was a 2/5 player waiting for his game. You should definitely not 3b the flop.
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Old 06-13-2021, 08:09 AM   #3
DannyAIC
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

this is a SNAP, and if you lost it’s a cooler. Against the general population He’s either at 8s full, quad sixes or a missed flush draw or flush draw+pair trying to get you off your hand. And there’s a ton of flush draws he could have. My other thought was MAYBE a strangely played aces or the two remaining 86s. Most of those hands are pretty improbable.

Last edited by DannyAIC; 06-13-2021 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 06-13-2021, 10:17 AM   #4
jdr0317
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasranger47 View Post
Playing 1/3, 300 spread limit hold em, 7 handed. Hero has $650 starting stack.

Only context is I've never played against the main villain (utg1). He literally just sat down; the chip carrier brought him chips during the turn action. Villain is $600 effective.

Hero has KdKs in bb. Utg1 limps, utg2, co limp. Hero raises to $25, adding 1bb for every limper to standard 5bb open. Only utg1 calls.

Flop ($62)
Qd 8c 6c. Hero c bet $30. Villain raises to $75. Hero calls with $550 behind.

Turn $212)
3d. X, bet $150, call, $400 behind.

River ($512)
6s. X, bet max 300. Hero...?

I know I made a mistake but I can't pinpoint where it went wrong. Feels like I went too passive after the check raise. With a limp call pre-flop, my immediate thought is 2-pair, set, or club draw. The continued aggression on later streets confused me, so by the river I think I'm basically bluff catching. In retrospect I think I want to GII on turn when it bricks? I find out Villain is a 2/5 player when he was called for a seat and walked off 30 minutes later, ha.

I would appreciate any insight into the line and how I should be thinking about this situation. Thanks guys.

Definitely calling off as played. This is one of the best rivers in the deck as now you beat Q8, if he has that in range. Also reduces flopped set combos.
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Old 06-13-2021, 11:01 AM   #5
ralphykid67
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

While not super wet for his range this is a very dynamic texture. I'd like to start with a bigger bet on the flop of $40-50. We want to start building a big pot and get value now. A lot of turns and rivers are going to kill action. Your line is fine otherwise and we're happily calling river.
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Old 06-13-2021, 12:10 PM   #6
sixsevenoff
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Assuming you called river the whole hand looks fine. I'd go slightly smaller otf, but whatever. I'm calling down with this run out after he raises flop.
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Old 06-13-2021, 04:55 PM   #7
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

I don't think i'd reraise the flop, but i'm definitely not looking to back down here.

I might raise the turn, but if not i'm definitely calling down. If he shows up with 88 or some messed up bluff on the turn that made trips, we have to live with it. He just has so much in his range that you beat.
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Old 06-13-2021, 07:13 PM   #8
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Not folding. The river is a great card that counterfeits some two pairs and makes less combos of sets available. All the draws bricked. Couldn't ask for much more
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Old 06-14-2021, 11:11 AM   #9
gobbledygeek
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Not sure why I didn't grunch this...

A lot of this may come down to how your room and your 1/3 NL table in general plays. You're already in a different situation than my 1/3 NL table in that (a) it looks like you can BI for at least 200bb (whereas my table's long time cap of 100bb was only recently increased to 133bb) and (b) it looks like you have different stakes in your room (so you might get a different hierarchy of players, some of whom may consider the lowest level play money). But in general, how often do you see stacks upwards of 200bb going in and with what sort of hands?

SPR is about 11ish on the flop on we only got in 4% of our stack preflop. Unless your game plays very differently than mine and/or you're up against a very special opponent, I almost never want to get in remaining stacks with just the one pair. So with that in mind, if I'm betting any streets it is usually to fold to a raise. And if I don't feel comfortable folding to a raise (which I might not against a complete unknown), then I would much rather check the flop to go into check/calldown mode (vastly underreps our hand and widens the range he shows down with) and pretty much attempt to only have 2 bets go in postflop (instead of the 4 we ended up facing).

As others have stated, the runout is fairly favourable. No draws got there, some ahead combos were reduced, and we even counterfeited a hand. The problem is that most people ain't value betting TP on the river at the best of times (let alone here where our hand is face up as minimum TPGK), plus don't get in 4barrels postflop with air against the faceup holding we have (especially when they've just passively limp/called preflop, which should eliminate a huge amount of draws that we're attempting to put into the bluff column).

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Old 06-14-2021, 01:50 PM   #10
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Snap call. It's a cooler if you lost. Played fine (if you called). No reason to bet him off worse.
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Old 06-14-2021, 01:56 PM   #11
gobbledygeek
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

My definition of a cooler is also vastly different than how others are using it. Getting in just lol 4% of stacks preflop and then getting in hugenormous 96% of stacks postflop with one pair for upwards of 200bb with 4 bets is not remotely close to a cooler, imo.

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Old 06-14-2021, 01:58 PM   #12
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
My definition of a cooler is also vastly different than how others are using it. Getting in just lol 4% of stacks preflop and then getting in hugenormous 96% of stacks postflop with one pair for upwards of 200bb with 4 bets is not remotely close to a cooler, imo.

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Does the word “range” mean anything to you, bro?
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:49 PM   #13
gobbledygeek
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

I could ask you the same of "weight" (unless you think 99% of players play their bluffing range here exactly the same as they would their nut range 99% of the time).

I dunno. Maybe everyone's game plays completely differently than mine, and that is why I prefaced my response with a question to the OP regarding it.

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Old 06-14-2021, 02:53 PM   #14
Garick
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Quote:
most people ain't value betting TP on the river at the best of times
Based on OP's name, this is totally wrong. In Texas, most Vs are value betting AQ for three streets on this board, and are often raising with it OTF.
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:55 PM   #15
jdr0317
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

GG, this is a complete unknown player. We have no idea what his range construction is. We are near the top of our range. Sometimes you’re destined to be the caller in a big pot. It’s that simple.

Here’s your weight exercise: he isn’t raising 6x on the flop. And if he is, then he will have a metric f-ton of bluffs. So given that, he’d have to have 6s full, 8s full, or quads to have us beat. And if he has “plenty” of hands like Q6, then once again, he has plenty of hands that he can bluff with.

He doesn’t even have to be bluffing. I could literally give him all the flopped sets and two pairs (including QQ), and if he value bets river with Q8, we are getting the correct price to call against VALUE.
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:58 PM   #16
gobbledygeek
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Based on OP's name, this is totally wrong. In Texas, most Vs are value betting AQ for three streets on this board, and are often raising with it OTF.
Again, this game plays massively different than mine (and, frankly, pretty much any 1/3 NL game I've ever played in over the last ~decade) if the guy is passive enough to limp/call AQo preflop and then yet aggro enough to play it for 4 bets postflop when our hand might as well be face up on the table by the river.

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Last edited by gobbledygeek; 06-14-2021 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:14 PM   #17
gobbledygeek
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

The Q8 for value line isn't a bad argument for calling the river as played, although you'd have to add in some offsuit variety / a total unawareness of being counterfeited to make it closer.

My point in general is that we should almost never be taking an overall line to encourage getting in stacks this deep with one pair having not setup a comfortable commitment spot preflop. And against unknowns, I'm always defaulting their play to the pool in general; your pool plays far differently than mine if you're defaulting to "plays very passive preflop but will blast off postflop for large ~stacks given any opportunity".

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Old 06-14-2021, 03:17 PM   #18
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
The Q8 for value line isn't a bad argument for calling the river as played, although you'd have to add in some offsuit variety / a total unawareness of being counterfeited to make it closer.

My point in general is that we should almost never be taking an overall line to encourage getting in stacks this deep with one pair having not setup a comfortable commitment spot preflop. And against unknowns, I'm always defaulting their play to the pool in general; your pool plays far differently than mine if you're defaulting to "plays very passive preflop but will blast off postflop given any opportunity".

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And your point is over-generalized and plain wrong. And not helpful. No one cares about your OMC minimax play style.

Sorry but it’s true. Post some sims and show us why we are wrong
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:35 PM   #19
venice10
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

TBH, the decision point is at the turn, not the river. Fold if you aren't going to call a 300 bet on the river on a blank. The river actually helps your hand. If I got this far, not folding now.

As for the turn, it depends. If I'm playing on a weekday afternoon vs. a 60+ aged villain, I'd probably fold. If I playing at midnight against a mid-20's asian male, never folding.
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:36 PM   #20
gobbledygeek
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

I'll get right on finding that sim that concludes "Dude stacks off for ~200bb with one pear cuz draws/range/stuff? Sounds like a very tough game, would probably avoid and find a better one." immediately.

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Old 06-14-2021, 03:38 PM   #21
jdr0317
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I'll get right on finding that sim that concludes "Dude stacks off for ~200bb with one pear cuz draws/range/stuff? Sounds like a very tough game, would probably avoid and find a better one." immediately.

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You’re brutally lazy. No wonder you refuse to argue with anything besides hand waving.

Everyone, raising kings is bad. Don’t do it.
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Old 06-14-2021, 04:11 PM   #22
gobbledygeek
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Nice reading comprehension cuz that's obviously exactly equivalent to what I've stated in this thread.

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Old 06-14-2021, 05:09 PM   #23
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

I just see a word salad that shows you’re more afraid of commitment than Leonardo DiCaprio is to a woman over the age of 25
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:37 PM   #24
Garick
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Alright, guys, enough with the strawmen.

And GG, maybe you need to accept that your game conditions are unusual. Aggro pre and nitty post is not a common dynamic. Admittedly, Texas takes splashy to 2008 levels, but almost everywhere I've played (and that's a lot of places) is either splashy throughout, LP throughout, or a mix of weak/tight and regs who are somewhat LAGgy.
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Old 06-15-2021, 10:01 PM   #25
texasranger47
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Re: Kings get raised on flop, compounds

Thanks to everyone that took time to respond. Despite the username, I am not in Texas. This game was played in Arizona and in this card room you can buy in for 200bb.

Given my skill level, I've found it advantageous to follow the "1/3 players aren't bluffing on large river bets" rule when facing unknown opponents. This is why I wanted other opinions on this hand as played.

Thank you fellas.
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