Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-22-2017, 07:43 AM   #1
Chicagodude
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,798
K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

When I began playing heavy in 2004 and studying poker, Q10 and K10 were often called "trap hands" when you called raises with them, especially if they're double suited.

In NL 1/2, when facing a raise of 15 or 20 I always fold these hands. Is that too nittish? I notice that Andrew Neeme calls with these hands. Is that something I should be doing too? They call the QJ "the Neeme" but I fold that to raises too. Am I playing too uncreatively?
Chicagodude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 07:56 AM   #2
Petrucci
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,186
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

I eat pizza 2 times a weak- is that too much? Is it unhealthy for my body? Do i need to mix up my eating schedule more?

The boring answer is that it depends, there is no absolutes in poker and nothing is written in stones that you should always make action X or always make action Y.

Like if you have a whale that raises 15 bucks every freaking hand he is dealt, K10 becomes an easy call for value or even an easy 3 bet. Against the average tight 1/2 open raiser though, those kind of hands is easy folds when facing big opens in the 15-20 range.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 08:21 AM   #3
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,440
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

It also depends on your skill at playing these type of hands post flop. If your goal post flop is fit or fold, you want to fold these pf.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 08:59 AM   #4
JDT123
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 106
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

In spots where you're likely to go multi way then calling with these hands is fine, but personally I'm unlikely to want to see flops with these hands heads up due to being dominated so often. If the Hand is suited then there are also some promotions for straight flushes and such, but I wouldn't take this too much in to consideration

You can also raise them in LP of course

When calling with these hands also tread carefully if you hit top pair
JDT123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 09:43 AM   #5
DK Barrel
Concept of the Week author
 
DK Barrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: no gamble, no future
Posts: 6,798
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

In 1/2 NL if you have QTo and face a preflop raise you could well be against a range made up entirely of dominating hands.

I'm guessing this held true in 2004 as well when general wisdom suggested a much less aggressive style.

It's not exciting but if someone is opening 10% of hands for 8x the correct adjustment is just going to be fold a whole bunch.
DK Barrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 10:27 AM   #6
Chicagodude
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,798
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

Yeah, the reason I posted it was a 10 buck raise under the gun yesterday for $10. Two callers then to me in the SB. I folded K 10 of hearts and was greeted with this on the flop:
9 Spades J Hearts Q diamonds!
Then bet for 10, call for 10, with a 250 reraise from a guy with a set of 9s. It freaked me out what i missed out on but that's poker I guess. He showed me the 9s before folding.
Chicagodude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 02:56 PM   #7
sai1b0ats
veteran
 
sai1b0ats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,463
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

Does Neeme really flat 7.5x+ pre-flop raises with QTo? Seems hard to believe unless pretty deep AND has a huge skill edge.
sai1b0ats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 03:49 PM   #8
Rich Checkmaker
banned
 
Rich Checkmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,442
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

neeme is by no ways the standard that you should be using to play poker, he gets a lot of things wrong. if you want to play QT or KT it needs to be suited you need to have position and be the preflop raiser. otherwise dont play it.
Rich Checkmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2017, 10:47 PM   #9
GenghisKhan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 122
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

They are playable in very specific situation. The entire math theory of KTo, QTo, JTo and other marginal hands is vast and can't be described in a little 2+2 post. They are trapping dominated hands ONLY if you intend to win at the showdown, else, you got to know what you're doing.

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-22-2017 at 11:06 PM.
GenghisKhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 02:35 AM   #10
3K_TOM17
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 451
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

I will 3b 60% of time with these hands * deep stacked against an opener cause I want to be HU, cbet take it down most of the time. Especially offsuit these hands are not positive ev

If you can't call profitably, you must raise, just a quote. Play LAG

Sent from my ASUS_Z00VD using Tapatalk
3K_TOM17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 03:32 AM   #11
Medicchris
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

I'll play these hands in good position, CO and button, or to a small raise in my blinds. The method I follow is the same as SC, don't convince yourself that middle pair is probably good, or that you're not outkicked. I'm looking for big draws or two pairs plus, especially multi handed. HU, I'll play these a little looser, such as flopping top pair, but I'm generally looking for good odds in, and making hands that will pay big if it hits.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Medicchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 04:02 PM   #12
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,931
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

I insta-muck KQo to a raise 95% of the time at 1/3 NL without a second thought. Hands as weak as KT and QT aren't even worth discussion, imo. My guess is for them to be profitable against a raise you'd need (a) to be up against a wide opener, (b) be in position, (c) be HU and (d) plan on stealing a lotta pots.

If your plan is to simply cooler someone (as the HH shows), then you have to ask how often hands like this are going to be on the winning end of the cooler. They are much more likely to be on the losing end of any "coolers".

GcluelesstroublehandnoobG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2017, 07:35 PM   #13
ahsfl
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 276
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

Can't be too results oriented and yes those are gut wrenching moments. As said above, being suited and in position or closing action can make them more playable. In the hh out gave above, if the BB isn't likely to 3! And your call also makes it more likely that he calls as well, I've been know to play a suited hand like that as if it's a small pp so if effective stacks are big enough (emphasis on the pf raisers stack), I might make a call trying to flop big.
ahsfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 09:31 AM   #14
BackDoorFlush
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,171
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

KTo and QTo are garbage hands. They play terribly in multi-way pots, especially OOP.

When you get dealt KTo/QTo/QJo in the SB, and MP has raised it 5-8X, you should be turbo mucking it.
BackDoorFlush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2017, 09:37 AM   #15
BackDoorFlush
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,171
Re: K10, Q10 Bad Calls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I insta-muck KQo to a raise 95% of the time at 1/3 NL without a second thought.
KQo is a 3! or fold. The exception is if you are playing against a double or triple barrel monkey. These players are rare and are easy to spot.
BackDoorFlush is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive