It's a math problem. Feel free to explain how being all-in and whiffing is better than not being all-in and folding. Why don't you want the option of reacting to the cards that come, betting if you hit, folding if you're on the river and didn't?

And who says we won't have odds to draw on the turn; especially 3 way. We'll have over 30% equity on the turn in a 3-way pot.

I think it would be more convincing than bright blue print.

We are 50/50 against Villain why do we need him to fold? Against three Villain we're still winning 50% of the time and putting in far less than 50% of the money.

Why is everyone so excited about having a 50/50 draw with no implied odds if you hit?

Mr Moderator, I really encourage you to think of the math/EV of your lines.

Valid points. I'm about to go grind for today and tomorrow.

If this topic is still up in a couple of days, I throw some math behind what I'm saying.

FWIW, I do understand what you are saying and in fact I did do some math on it a while ago and what you are saying is correct around a certain eff stacks / SPR / fold equity. I forget the exact thresholds and conditions. My intuition for this spot though is that we are right at the boundary between c/r shoving here and taking the line you propose.

But you are right, math is better than bold blue print. I'll try to circle back in a couple of days

Sounds exploitable

I'd only like a call here if we had JTo and didn't wanna commit to a shove. I also think that the turn is getting shoved nearly 100% of time, so there is little chance we are not committing all our money. We just have so many outs, I am not sure we gain much more by letting villain 1 possibly commit $50 more when 3way and the flush/Ace comes in, we can not get paid off cause villain 2 will assume one of us has the flush or JT if he has Q4s K4s or KQ.

This.
Its all about the 2. villian in the hand making the pot 3-way.
Assuming we have really low FE (<10%) and our draw is somehow "nutty", we want to keep villian#2 in the pot, so calling is the best play in my opinion.
In my games, villian#1 who raised to 90 is NEVER (meaning <3%) folding to our shove.
That being said, I think call-down-any-bet-without-looking-at-turn-card > shoving
for the purpose of keeping V#2 in could be the best play.

@dgiharris:
"You also don't include the times we whiff turn, they shove, and we fold":

This case is not relevant since we are priced in (getting almoste 3:1 or 3.5:1 if v#2 also calls) on calling a turn shove. So call flop call (any) turn is still +ev line.

"Not to mention when we do bink the turn our villains will fold X% to our bets":

This should also happen verry rarely. If we bink the turn and villian has a set he is almost priced in as well. Also this case could even-out with the case that a "scare-card" for villian#1 hits (like a J or K/Q killing his two-pair) and we get a free river.

"Only problem with the above is you aren't including all the times the turn pairs and we are still drawing live to win.":

If we think about shoving OTF or calling, we should consider a "call-down" and not folding to any turn. I think, call flop / call any turn has better EV than shoving flop, so if we play poker and realize some kind of an Edge on a K/Q turn, and maybe hero-fold our draw based on reads, that can not be a bad result at all? (I mean, I assume we are having a decent amount of postflop edge over villians?)

As played gii on the flop. Call pre is OK. JTs plays well mulit-way but you are OOP. For that reason I don't like the donk bet. Should have went x/c.

Fold J10s UTG pre first time around.

I would just insta pile that flop raise without even really thinking about it. Perfect flop for your hand with out flopping a straight or flush.

However, I would raise preflop somewhere around $6-10. Take the aggressive play and enter the pot first with a raise. Open limping is just so meh. Have fun playing when 6-7 players call and you are in a small pot against so many players. IDK why you are asking about this hand in the first place though. Simple pile. I can almost guarantee opponent will call with bet sizing and have you beat but your equity is so good, get it in and hope to hit.

No such thing at these levels.

That's not so bad. You got it in on a flip with tons of dead money so overall a fairly profitable situation.

I don't think anyone is saying that shoving is horrible, or that it's money-losing.

But why do you believe that flipping is the most profitable way to play this hand, with the focus on the word "most"?

If our cards were face-up the Villain who called would have played the hand the same way; no mistakes occurred.

If we would have called and gotten in a 3-way pot, one of the Villains would have been making a mistake calling. The equity in most scenarios is 48% 48% 4%.

Don't we profit when our Villains are playing properly against our range but improperly against our actual hand?

But one of the main points is that we cant see villains cards-we can only range him as accurate as we possibly can. And he is going to have an unreal tight of a range for not shoving here on the flop being+EV.

That being said i will listen to other perspectives that might be even more +EV than shoving- such as flatting and hope to bink=getting paid.