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Old 12-30-2013, 12:09 AM   #26
eapoker9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen View Post
I agree with this. People tend to play their buttons too aggro imo, the button shouldn't give you the freedom to raise any 2.
I think especially in a 6 max game position is nearly as important as the two cards you hold. Raising over a limper with JT on the button is correct for an aggressive player in this game.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:40 AM   #27
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

JTo isn't any two.

Raising here pre is fine with just one limper. You're going to raise and then take it down OTF a high percentage of the time.

But you have to be able to play postflop. And sometimes, that means folding. Like here.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:43 AM   #28
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
If I'm going to fold top two to pressure when raising JT pf, I need to stop raising JT pf.
wat
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:22 AM   #29
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

I would look at the "let's speed it up here" speech as actually strength in that he may want to rush your decision into a bad one - but without knowing the players or any reads this isn't 100% - but I do know players at these lower level can be scared even with the nuts and want the hand over. Additionally, it makes perfect sense for BB to have KQ here - a check raise is pretty strong. And regardless of wat UTG + 1 one has, if our best options are shove or fold we should realize that shoving has no fold equity and now we have to beat or outdraw 4 cards instead of two. Anytime I am in any kind of marginal shove/fold spot and it isnt heads up I have to consider I have to beat mutliple cards. It's like they are playing omaha and you are playing hold em. You also only have $30 invested and its a pretty easy fold until you get better reads on the table and get a better spot. Even if IS 4am and players are drunk and tired it doesnt mean they are suddenly retarted.
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:30 AM   #30
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

4am in Vegas, 6 handed. I'd at least pot the flop. As played, shove.
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:53 AM   #31
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

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Originally Posted by DrChesspain View Post
This is a 6 handed game, and you're putting both players on monsters? I'm definitely not folding top 2 pair on a super wet board when starting stacks were less than 100bb.


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Exactly what I was thinking. Throw in the fact it's 6 handed, I think it's a pretty standard shove with less than 100bb. Espec with no reads at 4am. Ppl ready to double-up or go home broke shoving all kinds of bs at 4am at the 1-3
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:07 AM   #32
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
If you don't have solid reads on these players, why are you isolating with JTo?

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he did say it was 6-handed, I don't mind his raise pf here.
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:08 AM   #33
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

Yeah, I thought it was 9-handed.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:16 AM   #34
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[QUOTE=

Did you get to see the turn card?[/QUOTE]
I shoved so yeah- I saw the turn. I'm gonna hold off on saying what happened as I like the discussion so far.
But I'll Give results in a bit.

As for those asking for more reads- I'd give them if I had them

FWIW BB looks like a Pretty solid middle aged guy who wouldn't do anything to out of line- but that's based on my own very superficial prejudice.
When I raised pf I thought I saw a look of slight annoyance on his face as I've raised a few hands already preflop even though I haven't Been there long


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Old 12-30-2013, 12:34 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by examinedexercises View Post
I shoved so yeah- I saw the turn. I'm gonna hold off on saying what happened as I like the discussion so far.
But I'll Give results in a bit.

As for those asking for more reads- I'd give them if I had them

FWIW BB looks like a Pretty solid middle aged guy who wouldn't do anything to out of line- but that's based on my own very superficial prejudice.
When I raised pf I thought I saw a look of slight annoyance on his face as I've raised a few hands already preflop even though I haven't Been there long


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Results? Why tell us you shoved and not give turn/river or Vs actions?
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen View Post
Results? Why tell us you shoved and not give turn/river or Vs actions?
Oookkkk. I shoved and they both called. BB had 78 (no surprise there) but UTG +1 had... A8 (!!).

Thanks for the comments guys. I think a fold is best here. Haven't run the numbers yet but I'm guessing my equity vs both my opponents ranges isn't good. I'm usually up against a straight (4 outs) or some sort of Pair + combo draw (which is around even money against us). Once in a blue moon I'm up against 9T or J9- but I don't think all that often.

At best I think it's a high variance break even play (in which case- why put myself in that spot?) At worst its a little spewy.

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Old 12-30-2013, 02:04 PM   #37
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Oh also- I appreciate people advocating for just calling the raise but I think raising is better than just calling.

My reasoning is this: there are times when a scare card hits and we end up folding the best hand.
Let's say turn is 7 of spades. BB had J9 and shoves.
When we fold there its a really really big mistake.

Like I said I think the best play is to fold but at least when we shove we avoid the possiblity of making this Type of mistake.

If we are 500+ deep I'm more likely to call and reevaluate the turn- though even then I think a fold is probably Best

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Old 12-30-2013, 02:49 PM   #38
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
It is an easy fold.

Personally, I'm getting it in.
It's an easy fold, but you're moving all in?
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:53 PM   #39
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
If I'm going to fold top two to pressure when raising JT pf, I need to stop raising JT pf.
Other than all spades, this is the worst possible flop we could hit top two pair with. No shame in folding. It doesn't mean we have to stop raising with JT; just a bad-good flop.
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:59 PM   #40
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

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Originally Posted by examinedexercises View Post
Let's say turn is 7 of spades. BB had J9 and shoves.
When we fold there its a really really big mistake.
It's fair to assume that most opponents are not going to shove a 7 turn with J9. As others have mentioned, this is a situation where people are likely to play straightforward on the turn.
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Old 12-30-2013, 03:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywade View Post
It's fair to assume that most opponents are not going to shove a 7 turn with J9. As others have mentioned, this is a situation where people are likely to play straightforward on the turn.
Im not willing to conceed that some villains aren't shoving J9 even 9T are scary turn cards. It's 1-3 and I've seen people make some really bizarre/ terrible plays at v these stakes

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Old 12-30-2013, 05:51 PM   #42
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Re: JT at the Aria: a little vomit in the mouth

GRUNCH

The problem I find in these situations is that players tend to think in terms of the few hand combos that can beat them: KQ, Q9, 87, 99 and ignore the dozen of hand combos we are ahead of: QJ, J9, T9, KJ, AJ, J8, QT, Q9, XY

For under 100bb, we can shovel it in and it still be +EV, so grab the shovel and go ahead and jam the chips in.

Its a high variance but definitely +EV spot and you will be surprised at the range of hands that call. And FWIW, we do have outs to improve

EDIT: Calling and stacking off on all bricked turns (i.e. no K, 8, 7, or ) isn't bad either.
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