Yup. Where I play, 1/2 is 10% capped at $15, no BBJ tho.

Which would be an argument for just folding it in EP. (Which I would never do, but I'm not saying I'm right, just that I can't fold QJs or JTs unless it's a 3! happy table. Then I could care less tbh. The weaker suited BW and all unsuited except KQ are instamucked.)

If the table is soft and not 3! happy I am opening them all for a raise. Playing raised pots better than our opponents is how we make money.

They're all opens from up front in all live games. People play worse in bigger pots. Not enough 3bing live to worry about it. Limp gives you little chance to win the hand, no initiative and makes the rake more relevant.

This makes sense, but where I play & the image I have, if I open/limp UTG+1/2/3 they'd know I have 22-55 & some will raise me off the hand. You also have to think about how hard it is to overcome the rake when 5 players see the flop for $2.00 each & they rake $1 for BBJ @ $10 & at $20.

If they'll pay $2 they'll most likely pay $6/$7

Now where I play 1/2 the max buyin is $300 & avg stack is ~$200 & 1/3NL is $500.

Certainly.

$70 is a "super duper standard" pot?! If so, no way in hell would I play. Not even with a $5 rake & $1 BBJ. I would get a job.
I see $200 -$400 pots several times a session & if you come in on midshift you can see $800 pots 2-5am.

Tonight: Kid opens for $10, gets 2 callers - I raise in SB to $45 with AKo Kid calls. Older gambler type - all in for $95. Other player folds, I shove as the kid only has $175. Kid calls. That's $455 before the rake. That's not avg, and you'll see pots under $100, but I usually am not in them. Unless 6 way for $10 with me in late position with a drawing hand - HIT - checked to me I bet & they all fold.

I don't limp because of the rake. I just don't play unless I have a hand that's worth raising with, or, someone opens for ~$10 gets some callers & I'm on Button CO with 76s etc. Then I'll call. 1/3NL with $500 buy in is another story.

If you have a $7 rake in a 1/2NL game & max buy in is $200 & it's the only game within a decent distance - my condolences.

Damn! Someone could make a helluva' lot of $$$$ with a home game raking $5 max & providing food. Once a week - $600 net. Just need a 40 player pool of names for your 2 tables.

I know a guy who has been running a 15/30 limit game for 6 years now in his house. 1 table. Money !! Game full with 4 on waiting list.

I'd consider moving if your game's that bad (assuming you do this full time).

On a mostly loose passive table, I'd open QJs to make a nice sized pot to go multiway with. You're going to get called by much worse most of the time and you have a hand that's simple to play. If you connect on the flop, bet and take advantage of their weak loose calling range. Stack lower suited straights/flushes and get coolered by AKs. Poker is fun.

I got into this with Feely for a bit, but is this even beatable (I'm assuming a max BI of 100bbs = $200)? Would be interesting for you to post in the winrates thread if you've put in any significant hours. Your posts all seem really solid, but man, if you're beating this rake you're a monster, imo.

GcluelessrakenoobG

I'm purely recreational, plus from what I understand all rooms in our market have moved to this rake.

Gsky75%fallen,imoG

Not sure I agree with this. When you reduce the SPR by raising and going multiway, a lot of people accidentally end up playing fairly correctly in that they commit with TP; is our TP going to be on the good end of things enough when we're raising QJs in EP? Doubt it.

I think people actually play worse in high SPR pots (so relatively small pots with big stacks behind), which gives them lots of rooms / streets to make mistakes. By raising the more speculative end of our range (which these hands are), we obliterate our IO on our drawing hands (where our opponents could make big mistakes on the turn/river), and instead actually play right into their hands if they're willing to commit on early streets with TP (when we could easily end up with a worse TP or no longer have the IO to draw).

The only time we want people to "correctly" play their TP in a small SPR pot (i.e. raised preflop and goes multiway) by committing is when we have a bigger TP / overpair. Therefore we should be tightening way up here.

GimoG

In any poker actually. All of the above hands will show a profit at any position but in EP its only a slight profit so that means high variance. I think open limping is probably optimum, but it can be hard to take control and win without a hand so i still think raising is best just to give yourself some FE

I also play in the brutal 7+1 market. One way I try to combat the rake is taking down a lot more pots pre, and LRR big or just shipping has become part of that strategy. Limping the better of these hands early (KQs, QJs, KJs, A10s) gives me a limp-calling range to balance the premium hands I'm LRR. I also size my raises bigger in position raising limpers, either taking it down or making opponents make an even worse mistake by calling.

I've also come around to the fact that taking down pots uncontested preflop, especially with dead money (which you'll often have in very loose / very aggro games), especially rake free (no rake or BBJ on flops won preflop), might actually be a highly underrated concept.

GcluelessNLnoobG

You guys need to find some better games....UK here rake is 5% capped at £5 +50p or 5% capped at £3....

So I like to open these hands for 3x when I have 250+bb will fold them if I have less than 80bb.....and then will mix it up a little depending on dynamics in-between those stack sizes.....but limping isn't horrible,

Easy game when raising,folding and limping are all good.....Obviously only limp if you feel you have the post flop edge......in fact only really open them if yiu have the pre-flop edge.

Luckily all the games in my area are $5+1. If any room decides to increase it all the patrons would flip their ****. It's funny how even the worst players in my game will say things like "lol how do you even beat this rake". They also do hardcore lobbying for legislature and stuff.

Also raising suited broadways in EP, but I feel lukewarm about it in the super loose ones. I'm usually in a spot where 1-3 Vs are calling 60-70% no matter what I do, and I just proceed carefully if a tight player comes along.

I'll tell you exactly what the patrons will do when they increase the rake in their games (especially if all other local options are doing the same): they'll grumble about it, and then they'll STFU, and then they'll continue playing and pay the higher rake.

GpatronshavezeropullinthematterG

1 of the local card room by me put the rake up by 50p and for two weeks nearly every reg went to play somewhere else..... They soon brought the rake down and added some new promotions to bring the players back......
They very quickly realised that without regs the games didn't run, so job public woukd turn up, see no poker and take his money elsewhere, without getting frustrated by losing, and then dumping 100 on roulette to Try and make his coin back.....

I can't believe with the competition for tables there must be where you guys play that no one is offering cheaper rake...... You should open a card room and charge 5% rake..... You woukd make bank....

7+1 rake christ...wouldn't even bother to show up for that game.

As for limping hands like JQs in early position, I don't think it's always bad. In a rake nightmare type of game it's bad, but with smaller rake and a certain type of table it can be profitable imo. It's not uncommon for me to end up in 4-500 dollar pots where there was like $10 in the middle going to the flop, lol.

The max buyin is 300, which helps a bit. No hard evidence, I have 125 hours for +$5,700ish, but that has some 2/5 (where the rake is a more reasonable 5% capped at 20) rolled into it as well. Probably 75-80% of my play has been at 1/2, 2/5 only runs on Friday and Saturday and sometimes the game sucks. I should really have recorded them separately. I've def been running hot in that sample, but do feel like the game is beatable. Attainable win rate is not going to be great, obviously.

If people just played a straightforward game it would be hard to win even if they were bad, but they have little quirks which help. One bad reg always limp reraises AA/KK from EP, but also raises as weak as JTo UTG. So whenever he raises in EP I just threebet him and print (usually rake-free) money. Several players vary their raise size such that they have one "juice the pot" size and one "real hand" size, which is also nice of them.

The game could pretty easily change such that I couldn't win. I've posted about this before, but if every player just started randomly bluff raising on like 10% of actions, that would probably do it. Just standard "flatted my preflop raise with KTo" bad is not going to cut it against that rake, it requires a lot of passivity and some amount of people turning their hands face up.

I live in GG's market, there are 4 poker rooms within the metro area (Vancouver BC). At least 3 of them have shrunk the size of the room, and one of them will shrink again soon. They all have the same rake, and usually they all have long wait lists (40+ on weekends is standard), so if we don't show up, some other donk will. We would literally have to travel to another country to find a better rake.

So "you guys need to find another room" is not an option.

Where I live, there is one poker room. The nearest alternative is 450 miles away.

Seems pretty ******ed that one of the wealthiest areas in North America (Vancouver/BC) wouldn't expand their game offerings and BI caps.

Although if I lived there I would probably spend 90% less time in the poker room and enjoy everything else BC has to offer which may explain part of it. There's probably far less grinders/pros there I'm guessing cuz good luck buying a house there as a poker pro.

Still seems bizarre that the games sound as bad as GG makes them out to be.

At a loose passive table where raising goes 4 way regularly and iso raises are rare I think open limping will be more profitable than raising. At a tighter, more aggressive table open raising will be better unless you have a limp/rr range to go along with limping this hand.

Hmm...play online? I'd much rather live in Vancouver and play online than grind 1/2 live in the US. Maybe we can trade citizenships.

Do you have to pay taxes on winnings in Canada? If not it probably evens out compared to most US locations.

Didn't a ton of online pros move to Vancouver after Black Friday?

I still think the game I play in is very good and very beatable. I just don't think it is as nearly as good as it was before, and I've had to adapt both my strategy and expectations accordingly. And one of those adaptations (to get this thread back on track) is now folding QJs in EP.

GandIplayin,um...Saskatchewan...yeah,that'sit...Sa skatchewan...G