It cant be a value bet if most worse hands are folding and most better hands are calling.

(Unless you're disagreeing with the premise that lots of worse hands are folding. In whivh case, I could be convinced.)

If you're expecting worse to fold then its a value bet.

I guess I'm simplifying it to:

-- If we want to be called its a value bet, even tho worse folds sometimes.
-- If we want to take the pot its a bluff, even tho better calls sometimes.

(there are others possible)

By "turning our hand into a bluff" I mean that we're betting with the intention of leveraging our FE, rather than betting for value, in which case we're betting to get worse hands to call. Your reason for betting was because a lot of hands fold, so I assumed that you were cbetting as a bluff.

I had previously assumed that people were advocating a bet in order to price out draws and force decisions from 2nd pair/split pairs, so my explanation up until that point was expressing why I thought that was bad.

Villains are going to call a lot lighter on the turn when flop checks through and the turn runs clean. Also, our equity goes up against draws and overcards. We should, at that point, be doing well enough against their turn calling range that we can bet for value.

Ok I see your point on not cbetting the flop. Respectfully agree to disagree.

I don't intend to fold out worse, just charge a price so they don't get to freeroll their draw, whether it be SD/FD/K/A. If they fold so be it, I'm ok with taking it down.

My thing is there is only 1 turn card I want to see, 1/47 unknowns. I'd rather bet now and charge people/reevaluate than see any of the 25/47 turns which make me not want to bet.

Betting isn't going to change what card comes out. If an ugly card is going to come, then we're better off not having bet and saving our money. This is what I meant by vbetting once our equity rises.

When you never get a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call, betting JJ here feels like a combination of getting your opponent to forfeit whatever equity he has in the pot while taking away some of his fold equity by making it harder for him to bluff you when you have the best hand. You should probably make the smallest bet you think you can get away with that doesn't invite a bluff-raise with air.

My instinct is to be passive with JJ against opponents where it has value as a bluff-catcher and use my hand-reading skills to play poker if I face any bets, and to bet/fold against other opponents. If your opponents are disinclined to bluff in multi-way pots because they fear someone slowplaying (but not so much that they fold top pair), I'd lean towards a bet/fold line.

This is 77 (less likely) or 44 (more likely) almost always. Sets are terrified of flushes at 1/2. This is almost as axiomatic (at least in my games) as 3! pre= kk+.

:beer: I will spend whatever time is necessary to address your problems and concerns.

Why are you bluffing the flop with 2nd pair vs millions of people

Charging draws is a fundamental poker element...

Can't help but feel I'm being leveled at this point.

Sometimes it's better to wait until the turn to charge a draw.

I figured the flop bet would generate some discussion. I'm still on the fence on that one myself. It's one of those spots where I know there's worse hands out there that will call, so it's not a complete bluff. The Q isn't as scary as an A or K out there, as Q-rag is less likely to end up in a preflop limpers range, but surely KQ/QJ/QT type hands are out there. If I had to do it over I would probably not bet it.

As for V's shove it smelled so much like a flush draw to me but I couldn't pull the trigger. I got a much better read on his tendencies as the session went on, and he evolved into a pretty big LAG, bordering on the fence of spewtard. The big c/r was a favorite move of his, sometimes with TPGK, sometimes with draws, others with some pretty ragged garbage. I think based on the new and improved read it's still a borderline call because he could show up with QT as often as a flush draw, but I'd have to stove it.

As I got up to leave for the night he looked over at me and said "it was a flush draw." Oh well.

True, but it's just that against a field of 3 it's very likely someone holds the Qx here, than a straight draw/flush draw, or both.

Heads up I'm betting most of the time against unknowns, and against a field of 4 I'm checking.

C-bet: see Continuation Bet

Continuation Bet: To bet post flop after being pre flop aggressor regardless of table position or holding

If you miss the flop more often than not, a c-bet is usually a bluff, by definition.

Yes, charging draws is something that we do a lot with value hands, but it doesn't change our equity against those hands.

In order for a bet to be for value bet, it has to be better than 50% against the continuing range. When we cbet this flop, we might be hovering around 50% against villains' continuing range (and that might not even be true), making this a thin vbet. If we wait a street, our equity will essentially double against draws and we'll get far more calls from lesser pairs, making our equity shoot up to the point that we can bet for fat value.

Another way to put it is to say that we don't intend to bet any more than 1 street, correct? So if a draw calls our flop cbet with a draw, he is calling 1 bet to get two chances at a flush; if we wait to bet on the turn, a draw is calling 1 bet to get just once chance at a flush.

Betting the flop wins us the most pots, no doubt. What it doesn't do is save us money when we're behind, earn more from worse hands, save us money when we're up against a flush draw and it completes on the turn, etc. The object is to maximize the money we win, not the pots.