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Old 08-19-2016, 09:38 AM   #1
buggits30
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JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

Interesting 1/2 game, tons of action and playing very deep with 6 players sitting 500+ including one over 1k.

V1: (740) one of the action drivers at the table. His stack has been yo yoing since I had changed to this table 2-3 hours ago. When I sat down he had well over 1k in front of him and he has moved from my direct left to his current seat 30 minutes ago. He would open really wide (most Ax hands, suited connectors and Q9s types) and whenever he was raising after the flop and turn he showed down 2p+. His draws and one pair hands tended to be more calling hands when he was in position. Liked to chase draws as well. Seemed prone to tilt as multiple times when he didn't win a hand he would call everyone "Christmas players" for getting lucky and not coincidentally whenever he would start complaining he seemed to be raising pre flop the next hand or soon thereafter. One hand of note, V1 opens to 15 HJ, hero calls CO with A4. Flop QQ4 checks around. Turn Q V1 leads 15 hero calls. River Q V1 bets 30, hero raises to 250 V1 snap folds.

V2: (400) mawg who had a weird game that I believed was fairly fishy but also seemed like he could be solid at times. I saw fairly fishy in that his bet sizings tended to be too small and he had shown the ability to make a bad call from time to time. One hand of note V2 limps from MP, hero raises ATss over 3 limpers to 17 CO, 4 calls including V2. Flop T94dd V2 leads 40 hero calls one other call as well. Turn 7x V2 jams hero folds.

Hero: (covers) mid 20 white guy. Table changed to this table about 2-3 hours ago. Only hand that got to showdown was AA all in pre against KT and QQ for about 200 and 300 each pre that held. Had won a few other pots raising pre in position and taking it down on the flop without having a hand, but the table didn't know that. I seemed to have a solid winning image fwiw.

Hand: V1 btn straddles 5. 2 limpers to hero including V2 utg+1. Hero raises to 25 in the HJ with red JJ (could potentially make it 30-35 here instead, interested in debating this. My sizing in straddle pots at this table had been 20 with no limpers or 25 with 1 or 2 limpers. This sizing was bigger than anyone else was raising in straddle pots at the table.) V1 calls OTB and V2 calls as well.

I expect V1 to defend pretty wide here, V2 has a lot of pp's some suited cards and smaller Broadway combos. He would have raised hands like AQ himself so can take all the monsters out of his range.

Flop: (82) 653ss

Checks to hero who bets 60, both call.

Not many better flops for JJ than this one. I expect both to continue with their one pair hands and draws like 78, 4x and spades. Fairly certain both players raise with most of their sets and 2 pair hands so I pretty confident I have the best hand.

Turn: (260) Td

V2 checks, hero bets 160. V1 calls after 15 seconds of basically cutting out the chips. V2 tank folds.

When V2 calls I'm heavily weighting his range towards 1 pair hands and draws, mainly because as mentioned he tended to raise his super strong hands on the flop and turn when facing a bet instead of calling. Plan is to check/decide all rivers.

River: Ah

Hero checks. V2 jams for 475 after thinking for not much time (5-10 seconds) hero?
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:45 AM   #2
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

fold. this should be an easy fold for you.

It's prob Asxs or a set.

I think it's extremely rare that we fold the winner.
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:46 AM   #3
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

pretty interesting spot.
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:47 AM   #4
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
fold. this should be an easy fold for you.

It's prob Asxs or a set.

I think it's extremely rare that we fold the winner.
you think he shoves Ax for value? most players would either c/behind or bet smaller with that hand in such a big pot after previous action, so would be very surprised to see this hand.
also, sets should raise on a dynamic board like this more often than not on previous streets.

we get over 2 to 1 here...
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:56 AM   #5
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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you think he shoves Ax for value? most players would either c/behind or bet smaller with that hand in such a big pot after previous action, so would be very surprised to see this hand.
also, sets should raise on a dynamic board like this more often than not on previous streets.

we get over 2 to 1 here...
Yeah, that's true. Probably more sets than Ax. He's probably checking back small aces. He's described as a fishy MAWG.

If he can't beat an ace, he most likely checking. We haven't seen him bluff before ever (according to his description).

He's only jamming 475 into 580.
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:58 AM   #6
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

He made a normal size bet. Pot is $580. He can't really bet less than all-in if he's going to bet at all. I fold this pretty easily against described player. Probably has two pair, AsXs, or possibly a set, as Playbig mentioned. There are players I would call, but with the description given, he's not one of them.

AsTs seems about perfect for his hand, but there are a few others he could have.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:07 AM   #7
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

I am finding a crying call here. Really sick spot and nothing wrong with folding, but...

I could easily see Villain having a hand like 64 or 76 (maybe of spades, maybe not) here, realizing they are behind on the river, seeing Hero check the Ace scare card, and try to push us off JJ, QQ, or KK. If Villain is prone to entitlement tilt, this would fit the bill.

I also think he is raising with 2 pair or a set on the flop or turn. Pretty sure you are good on both because you're repping an overpair and small two pair hands are too vulnerable on this board to slowplay. So the question is whether he got there on the river by binking the Ace (if he has Ax of spades) or two pair if he had something like A5.

These types of opponents can be difficult to play against, especially when they are running hot, but in the long run they are highly profitable. Because Villain has more bluffs in their range then they do made hands, I grit my teeth and call.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:12 AM   #8
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

You mean V1 jams ...

Why are we check/deciding 'all' Rivers? It basically gives V1 the green light to do anything. Were you planning on a c/c until he bet so big? Were you c/f to any bet until it was this one?

I agree this can be seen as a pretty easy fold, but there's very little chance it's a set IMO. I think we see Arag here a ton. You indicated that he was just calling down 1-pr and draws when IP ... you fed this to us for a reason!!

A lot of this is resolved by just betting out on the River and not opening the door. It may cost us $180 or so but I think we feel more comfortable with our fold if he jams over that. I agree that his jam is less than pot but I don't really like the fact that he actually thought about it first .. unless we feel that his thinking included, "This guy is afraid of that Ace".

I think you have a very 'aware' opponent and he saw your story and may have taken advantage of your check, but I'm also aware of Arag 'draws' that existed with this board.

Very close and I would have to be in the moment to make this call. I think it comes down to what you really think he's calling the Turn with. You might see 78 here with the way he was cutting out chips. Very deliberate .. "another double gutter" GL

Last edited by answer20; 08-19-2016 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:13 AM   #9
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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He made a normal size bet. Pot is $580. He can't really bet less than all-in if he's going to bet at all. I fold this pretty easily against described player. Probably has two pair, AsXs, or possibly a set, as Playbig mentioned. There are players I would call, but with the description given, he's not one of them.

AsTs seems about perfect for his hand, but there are a few others he could have.
I don't think AsTs is in his range here. In my experience, when this type of player hits TPTK and the nut flush draw on the turn, they are likely raising us right then and there. It's certainly possible Villain could have this hand, but I think very unlikely.

Also, we should remember that Villain was a button straddle (had already put $5 into the pot) and it was $20 more for him to call on the button. So we can expect his range to be wide here. I think hands like 64 are far more likely than As10s.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:19 AM   #10
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

Oops .. yes, straddle considerations. Had V been 3-betting 'all' his Ax hands when straddling? I'm getting closer to a call here .. GL
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:21 AM   #11
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

My apologies for the typo. V1 jammed river
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:24 AM   #12
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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You mean V1 jams ...

Why are we check/deciding 'all' Rivers? It basically gives V1 the green light to do anything. Were you planning on a c/c until he bet so big? Were you c/f to any bet until it was this one?

I agree this can be seen as a pretty easy fold, but there's very little chance it's a set IMO. I think we see Arag here a ton. You indicated that he was just calling down 1-pr and draws when IP ... you fed this to us for a reason!!

A lot of this is resolved by just betting out on the River and not opening the door. It may cost us $180 or so but I think we feel more comfortable with our fold if he jams over that. I agree that his jam is less than pot but I don't really like the fact that he actually thought about it first .. unless we feel that his thinking included, "This guy is afraid of that Ace".

I think you have a very 'aware' opponent and he saw your story and may have taken advantage of your check, but I'm also aware of Arag 'draws' that existed with this board.

Very close and I would have to be in the moment to make this call. I think it comes down to what you really think he's calling the Turn with. You might see 78 here with the way he was cutting out chips. Very deliberate .. "another double gutter" GL
"Aware" in what sense? Because it definitely wasn't in the "good" sense

My reasoning for check/decide is that I didn't think many hands I beat would call a river bet, and basically to give him some rope to bluff if he bricked his draws. Figured his one pair hands were checking most of the time.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:26 AM   #13
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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Oops .. yes, straddle considerations. Had V been 3-betting 'all' his Ax hands when straddling? I'm getting closer to a call here .. GL
He wasn't afraid to raise his straddle when limped to, but really wasn't 3 betting much. Probably has a premium if he does 3 bet.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:29 AM   #14
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

Wait, I have to go read V1 description again. I saw "V2 jams river" and re-read his!
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:36 AM   #15
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

OK, still don't see much bluffing potential in V1's description, either. He likes action, but he isn't bluffing. Plus, this: whenever he was raising after the flop and turn he showed down 2p+. His draws and one pair hands tended to be more calling hands when he was in position. Liked to chase draws as well.

Could easily be chasing an AsXs draw and hit. It could be a bluff, but I still fold. Not as quickly as I would against V2, though. If I had more reads that he would bluff here, I don't mind a call, but if I haven't seen it before, I fold.

I was thinking about a river bet/fold. "Same bet" might even do it. However, I don't think he ever folds better and it seems as if I'm just trying to save myself from being in the position I'm in. Really read-dependent at table, but as read online I fold.
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Old 08-19-2016, 11:21 AM   #16
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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"Aware" in what sense? Because it definitely wasn't in the "good" sense

My reasoning for check/decide is that I didn't think many hands I beat would call a river bet, and basically to give him some rope to bluff if he bricked his draws. Figured his one pair hands were checking most of the time.
I say 'aware' as in he picked up on the fact that you checked to an Ace after betting 3 streets. He is aware that he may have an opportunity to steal here if he didn't hit the Ace anyway.

I like the River reasoning but I would also like to ask you to consider how many of his one pair hands might see a 'weak' looking River bet as a bluff and call anyway.

Obviously not what we wanted to see here, but also certainly a form of what we were asking for by checking. GL
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Old 08-19-2016, 11:28 AM   #17
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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I say 'aware' as in he picked up on the fact that you checked to an Ace after betting 3 streets. He is aware that he may have an opportunity to steal here if he didn't hit the Ace anyway.

I like the River reasoning but I would also like to ask you to consider how many of his one pair hands might see a 'weak' looking River bet as a bluff and call anyway.

Obviously not what we wanted to see here, but also certainly a form of what we were asking for by checking. GL
Very true about the weak looking bet. My only reservation is that to this table it seemed like they always thought I had an A in my hand for whatever reason. I think it was just that AA hand. So for that reason I doubt I get looked up very light there. Villain did have a fold button
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Old 08-19-2016, 11:43 AM   #18
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

I highly doubt you get looked up light on the river A. How light could he be that he's strong enough to call (if that makes sense)?
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Old 08-19-2016, 12:06 PM   #19
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

I don't think V1 makes much of a difference. Still leaning towards a fold.

what were you doing here though?!

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V1 opens to 15 HJ, hero calls CO with A4.
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Old 08-19-2016, 12:34 PM   #20
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

You capped your range by your line basically air and one pair hand, mostly condensed on KK-JJ maybe 99. Think if he is aware of the fact you are capped. GTO perspective, you have to call a blank river which is also a good bluff card ace. I'm calling here


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Old 08-19-2016, 12:41 PM   #21
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

V is definitely not capable of value shoving Axss here. He rarely have sets or better. You are only losing to a few 2p combos which hits the river.


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Old 08-19-2016, 02:57 PM   #22
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

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I don't think V1 makes much of a difference. Still leaning towards a fold.

what were you doing here though?!
Was one of those hands where he was complaining before and was basically raising like 80% here, so wanted to see a flop super deep with a hand that is ahead of his range in position.
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Old 08-19-2016, 04:14 PM   #23
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Re: JJ facing river jam 350 bbs deep

not exactly a brick, but since you gave him the opening to bluff at it, I am calling
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