Think I made several mistakes in this hand but wondering what others think.

1/2 underground game.

V1 (UTG/$250) - Decent thinking player, though too loose. Sticky post. Generally positionally aware though still too loose from all positions. Capable of bluffing.
V2 (MP/$500) - Super whale calling station.
V3 (SB/covers) - Insane calling station, generally calls with any piece of the flop. However, run very good tonight, has gotten deep and tightened up.
V4 (BB/$400) - Good, tight players. Positionally aware.
H - A bit down tonight, but should have a winning aggressive image to all players except maybe V1, who may think of H as station.

V1 raises to $15. 4 callers including V2. Gets to H on the button with JJ. What does hero do?

In game I called, because V1 is uncapped and raising UTG, and if I 3-bet it's very likely to get several callers. Basically looking to set mine with JJ or continue on good flops, and this deep think I can definitely get paid when I bink. In position I can inflate the pot if I want or keep it small. That said, I believe this was a mistake and I should have 3-bet. So much dead money in there.

Anyway, H calls, and V3 calls. V4 now 3-bets to $45. Everyone calls and it gets back to H. Now what?

Again I called and again I regret it. I was a little worried because I had not idea what V4 3-bets to such a small amount with and I felt like he may have been trapping. That said, this is probably the best hand I flat the first time round on the button, and with so much dead money I should have shoved.

Anyway, H calls and V3 calls.

Flop ($280) - 944 rainbow. Checks to V1 who instantly shoves for about $200. V2 calls. Folds to H who does what?

Just such a weird spot and I was really lost here, which all comes back to my failure to 3-bet or 4-bet pre.

You must squeeze this.

You can often flat JJ facing an UTG open+call, but not ever here when this UTG player has too many hands and the whale has continued. This is a prime ISO spot, where you can go as large as you want pre given any semi-thinking non-whale (though maybe not at an underground 1/2 game) will recognize that you have no bluffs.

It likely wouldn't have worked out here too well and you would have wound up in a similarly marginal spot post, but most of the time you wind up HU in a low SPR, IP, against the spot, with value, which is good poker ldo.

AP I think it's a fairly painless fold. V1 remains uncapped pre IMO and V4 still has checks otf with hands >JJ (if hes any good) which is a compound problem that outweighs the value in shoving over this action even with an OP in the biggest pot of the week.

If you folded, nh. V1 is going to have QQ+ here almost always. And I also play it the same way as you did pre.

I guess you could argue 3betting to ISO the whale pre, but I'm not really a fan of bloating the pot with JJ, especially facing a strong open raise from a good player UTG.

you have two options preflop, you 3 bet, or you set mine because you think V1 has a good chance to have you beat. You decided to set mine, which i dont agree with, but the flop fold should be trivial at this point in the hand.

If V1 is too loose, 3 betting pre is trivial. If V1 is tight so you call pre, folding the flop is trivial.

How much do you have at this point? I think it's kinda close. I expect V1 to mostly have TT or QQ here, and maybe a 9, but who knows maybe a small amount of the time he could just see such a huge pot and ship with like 88 or AK or whatever. I think V1 is more likely to play 99 or something like A4s a bit slower, if he shows up with these hands... The whale can have a 4, but a 9 seems more likely (does he call with 88?)...

I think V4 bets more pre with KK or AA, and don't really think he's going to just 3x it with 99 so not too worried about him.

Anyway, I think you're probably at least about 25% to have the best hand, which is where you need to be to call. Plus you should be doing better than 50% against the whale, and he's still got some money behind... And this is not considering the 10% equity you have to suck out... So yeah, I think I'm likely just gonna go with it, though I'll feel pretty dumb when I lose.

I think above posts don't take into account the fact that V1 flatted the 3x 3bet. I think he almost never has aces, and rarely has kings... He's mostly going to be split between QQ and TT. (For the times he shows up flatting KK pre, I think there are probably nearly as many times that he 4bets QQ).

Let's not forget about v4 in this hand, he could be trapping with AA/KK on such a dry board. I think v1 has QQ/KK. Maybe (?) 1010 shoves here too. Combine the fact that v4 could be trapping, and that v1 looks real strong here, I think it's an easy fold.

Pocketzeroes,

I think v1 is more likely to flat KK pre (maybe AA some of the time too) in this specific hand, in order to bring the whale along with him. v1's stack size leaves him with an easy 2/3 PSB shove when he does just flat pre here, so flatting makes a lot of sense in this spot due to the benefit of bringing in a huge whale.

Perhaps, but you have to now re-account for V1 calling frequencies with KK+ as well once he shoves post. In addition to the possibility that he might just jam 99 here often as well. I also think you might be looking more for reasons to call than reasons to fold and forming a bit of a bias based on your own assumptions.

I don't mean it as some backhanded remark, I just think "V4 woulda raised more with KK/AA" and V1 4bets w QQ (but jams TT)" is a bit too subjective - I mean you win at poker, but I wonder if you overassume too often? Maybe worth thinking about? Idk

Sorry, neglected to include my stack size. I started the hand with $500 so OTF have about $450 back.

Poker is all about making assumptions... None of my assumptions are that V4 can never have KK or V1 can never have 99. But I think we can start cancelling out hands like that when we add in random spew weirdness, so it's easier to just assume that once the action gets to us, that we're not going to worry much about V4 and that V1's range is mostly PPs of which 50% or slightly more than 50% beat us... And at the end of this, if we calculate that we have the best hand like 30% of the time, maybe we subtract 5-10% or so just to be conservative. Then we add in the fact that we're probably ahead of whale's range and he's got some money behind, and we have 10% equity to suck out... And I think we get there.

Results, I fold, as does V4. Both Vs have 9x and end up chopping the pot...

Really dislike my play pre. I should have squeezed the first time around. When it gets back to me after the small raise by V4, I probably should have shoved. There's a ton of dead money just begging to be won, and while I have no idea what V4 raises 3x with after 4 or 5 callers, it's hard to imagine he does it with a QQ+.