Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-19-2019, 01:10 PM   #1
lil feller
old hand
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,428
JJ in a big pot

Live 1-3 but not really because everybody is button straddling and some stacks are super deep.

I'm utg with JdJc. Button straddle, so sb goes first. Sb is solidish young woman, bb is a very good player as well as I can tell capable of big moves. Sb and I each have about 600 and he covers us by a lot.

Sb calls, bb makes it 15, I raise to 60. They both call.

Flop is 10h8h8s. SB leads for 75, BB calls. Hero raises to 225. Sb calls, bb shoves. Hero?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
lil feller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2019, 01:26 PM   #2
dropnloads
journeyman
 
dropnloads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 278
Re: JJ in a big pot

you have 285 of your 600 stack in the pot already. It doesn't feel good for sure, but I think as played you need to fold.

I think your 3Bets are spot-on and you gathered valuable information that allows you to make a solid laydown against a solid/good players.

Unless you can mix in some semi-bluff hands into V's ranges (like J-9h, AKh, KQh).
And especially if you think BB is squeezing you.
The SB's bet of 75 into 180 pot is not very large - and maybe BB thinks he can put the squeeze on with a semi-bluff.

If you can mix in a fair number of semi-bluff hands into the BB's range then the math gets a little trickier. He may also be placing you on a monster draw and pushing all in on a hand like 99 if you think he is capable of making this play with 99.
dropnloads is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 12:21 PM   #3
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,958
Re: JJ in a big pot

I'm a constant broken record on this recently, but we've seen a glut of HHs like this over the past week: building huge pots preflop against solid players with deep stacks. I just don't get it.

With that in mind, I just flat preflop. There's very little dead money in the pot relative to stacks worth going crazy over. We won't be able to 3bet to an amount where we're comfortable stacking off postflop if we flop ok. We're often going to flop poorly. I just put in a mere 2% of my stack preflop and see a flop in position and then play some postflop poker. But that's me.

And now thanks to preflop we kinda just get ourselves very uncomfortably committed. The SPR is 3, so stacks will go in trivially. We offered both opponents about 15:1 IO preflop, so not great on their part but not horrendous either. And now we've flopped about as well as we can expect without flopping a set, and yet if any solid player wants to play for stacks against our EP 3bet we have to question exactly how great that is. The flop donk and flat is pretty damn scary on this board, but preflop has kinda tied our hands where we'll probably just have to hurp durp off our stack here, I guess? A solid player will show up with enough overcards + draw here (and very few 8x) where we probably just have to go with it at this point, I suppose.

I just think we can do better than getting ourselves into these super high variance spots where we're not exactly sure of what we should be doing for non-trivial stacks, and most of that comes back to preflop.

GbutI'lllikelybeoutvotedbyalargemargin,sowhateverG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 01:04 PM   #4
QuadJ
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,425
Re: JJ in a big pot

Preflop the situation is awkward no matter what you do but you need to size it differently. Raising $45 to about 10% of your stack puts the deeper stacks in a good position to set mine against you. Either go smaller or flat so you have some maneuvering room post flop or go $80-$100 so that only bigger pairs can profitably play.

In this situation I would be very suspicious ofSB's and BB's action if I thought they where decent players. Flatting the SB with a button straddle in play is generally a bad play and BB's near min raise is just asking for lots of callers and a reraise. I'm likely to flat here preflop and see what develops.

As played you are likely facing a better hand and good draw, fold the flop. The flop raise is debatable given the action. I'm likely to flat flop and see what the turn card and action is. You can get away cheap if turn action is strong.
QuadJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 01:22 PM   #5
Spanishmoon
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Northeast
Posts: 1,044
Re: JJ in a big pot

Good news, bad news.

Bad news: we created a bloated pot pre against good players. SB has led into us and BB may have the nuts. SB Might call even if we call and then itís a complex mťnage all in.

Good news: we block the logical straight draws. BB has flatted before shoving, suggesting he may be squeezing. You didnít get 4b flop, so nobody likely has better overpair. SB wouldíve re-jammed her TT. But BB may have TT and his line suggests he might. SB must have at least an 8x.

I can find a fold here. Itís a thin spot.
Spanishmoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 01:58 PM   #6
paradroid12
grinder
 
paradroid12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: LA
Posts: 569
Re: JJ in a big pot

wait why is JJ a mandatory raise on the flop 3 ways in a straddled+3bet pot on a coordinated, paired board with deepish starting stacks?

the main issue is that you have an awkward stack size facing the donk and call. almost any raise size is committing (a pot size raise is $480, leaving you with just $60ish behind, so if you want to raise pot, you might as well shove). if you just minraise and everyone calls, you will have about a 2/3 pot bet remaining for the turn+river. no matter what you do if you raise, you're kinda screwed.

from my cozy chair in my mom's basement here on the interwebs it's hard to tell whether JJ is good against this lineup, but when I think about times when I was excited to shovel it in on the flop over a bet and a call this isn't exactly what comes to mind.

I think I just call flop, even though it's an underbet and gives great odds to draw, etc. etc. and use my position to navigate future streets. as played, OP implies that BB is capable of having a hand dominated by JJ and SB looks a lot like a draw. I think a fold is standard and in general calling off against this action is terrible; however if there is ever a time you might hero with JJ, this would be it. still should probably fold unless you have the soul read.
paradroid12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 02:20 PM   #7
MarshMan114
grinder
 
MarshMan114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Upstuck City
Posts: 508
Re: JJ in a big pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by lil feller View Post
Live 1-3 but not really because everybody is button straddling and some stacks are super deep.

I'm utg with JdJc. Button straddle, so sb goes first. Sb is solidish young woman, bb is a very good player as well as I can tell capable of big moves. Sb and I each have about 600 and he covers us by a lot.

Sb calls, bb makes it 15, I raise to 60. They both call.

Flop is 10h8h8s. SB leads for 75, BB calls. Hero raises to 225. Sb calls, bb shoves. Hero?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
Iím ok with how you played it. One of the reasons you should 3bet preflop is so no one else calls behind. JJ is ahead of many different hands and if you call behind you essentially turn it into a meaningless pocket pair when 5 more people call behind you.

The flop raise is iffy at best. It should be a learning hand for you to slow down/let go on such a wet board. Your hand is pretty obvious so a bet and call into you means they arenít worried about a raise/jam. They out flopped you and you should know that, but the raise solidified it. Who ended up having the 8 and who was on the heart draw?
MarshMan114 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 03:19 PM   #8
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,958
Re: JJ in a big pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
One of the reasons you should 3bet preflop is so no one else calls behind. JJ is ahead of many different hands and if you call behind you essentially turn it into a meaningless pocket pair when 5 more people call behind you.
JJ is meaningless multiway?

My guess is the overwhelming amount of profits we make with JJ come from just flopping the biggest set.

Gwe'refinewithseeingaflopHU,we'refinewithseeingafl opeleventeenways,imoG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2019, 05:54 PM   #9
fightingillini
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 281
Re: JJ in a big pot

I don't hate the raise to $60 preflop, but I don't love it. I prefer to just call the $15 and see a flop and play from there.

Now that the pot is bloated, I don't see how you can raise here. You have a decent hand, but it's not one that you want to play a big pot with. You're losing to a 8, TT, any overpair to your jacks, and combo draws have a lot of equity against you. Really hard to raise here and get both Vs to fold....they both have $135 invested.

You need to fold now. No reason to lose the rest of your stack.
fightingillini is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive